Posts by TerryWalstrom

40

Return of the Dub (plus surprise guest)

by TerryWalstrom in

jw
friends

return of the dub (plus surprise guest)dealing with just one frisky, bright-eyed jehovah’s witness is a handful.one on one is manageable.

two jw’s is more like juggling chainsaws or french kissing alligators.i had a return visit the other day and now, the jw was returning the 2nd time, but with another dub.what would my strategy be?

that’s how the day was spent.

TerryWalstrom

The more I reflect on it--the more it seems like it was all a Nothing Burger.
My bad.
IF I get another go at him or them--and I really doubt it--I'll just go for the jugular and get into the BIG ISSUES.

40

Return of the Dub (plus surprise guest)

by TerryWalstrom in

jw
friends

return of the dub (plus surprise guest)dealing with just one frisky, bright-eyed jehovah’s witness is a handful.one on one is manageable.

two jw’s is more like juggling chainsaws or french kissing alligators.i had a return visit the other day and now, the jw was returning the 2nd time, but with another dub.what would my strategy be?

that’s how the day was spent.

TerryWalstrom

And my point will be this: Since Jehovah is taking action in Noah's Day and it is drastic action--it would necessitate a righteous government in order to prevent another plague of evil. It was God's decision NOT to begin a righteous government at that point.
Noah and his family are no different than any human family or families after Armageddon in the future.
GOD IS IN CONTROL and His is the responsibility.
When our military goes into a country and devastates it--they take a "You break it-you buy it" approach to rebuilding. Look at Japan after the Atom bombs were dropped.
General Douglas MacArthur stepped in with interim government.

If we can do it--God could have done it.

40

Return of the Dub (plus surprise guest)

by TerryWalstrom in

jw
friends

return of the dub (plus surprise guest)dealing with just one frisky, bright-eyed jehovah’s witness is a handful.one on one is manageable.

two jw’s is more like juggling chainsaws or french kissing alligators.i had a return visit the other day and now, the jw was returning the 2nd time, but with another dub.what would my strategy be?

that’s how the day was spent.

TerryWalstrom

Return of the Dub (plus surprise guest)

Dealing with just one frisky, bright-eyed Jehovah’s Witness is a handful.
One on one is manageable. Two JW’s is more like juggling chainsaws or French kissing alligators.

I had a return visit the other day and now, the JW was returning the 2nd time, but with another Dub.

What would my strategy be? That’s how the day was spent. Planning. Thinking.

In the final minutes before the dynamic duo arrived, I had to ask myself what my real purpose was in putting myself through this ordeal. Well? What is it, Terry?

It comes down to this.
IF these are “good people” a wake-up moment might shake them out of mind prison.
The instinct for Freedom is a powerful stimulant.
I like Earl (I call him Cheerful Earl) and living in a social construct like North Korea where he’s under constant surveillance is not a life anybody deserves.

___________

7:00 pm sharp: The Mighty Dubs ring the doorbell.

Cheerful Earl introduces me to a silver-haired man in glasses and a cheap suit who looks like he’s car salesman friendly. My Spidey senses are on full alert.

I immediately decide to present myself in a way which will cause Brother Bill to grossly underestimate me.
I decide to be Alan Alda from M.A.S.H. Good-natured and straight talking.

Why?
I have to get Bill to drop his guard!

The usual chit chat follows us into the kitchen and we all sit at a tall, square table top which will be way too small for comfort or Dub paraphernalia.

I ease into a preemptive speech about “How it’s Gonna Go Down.”
_______
“Bill, I’ve had some unfortunate sit downs in the past with insurance salesmen trying to double-team me into submission and they really have a way of seizing control of the conversation. I think you’ll agree it’s rude. Right?”
My face was the picture of innocence.
Brother Bill shoots me a dead smile. Earl is--well, cheerful.

I continued.

“I mentioned to Earl the other day, I like to get to know people and let them know where I’m coming from. I’ll tell you a little bit about myself. Okay?”

(Both nod)

“Now I’m telling you all this to make a point.
The people who brought me up--who raised me--were what you’d call no-nonsense. They were practical people and not inclined toward church, Jesus talk, doctors, politics or bullshit. Excuse my language. I was raised by grandparents and a great-grandmother. My Mom was around but no Dad.
My great grandmother arrived in Texas in a covered wagon from Tennessee chased by Comanches into Ft. Worth in 1889. Her husband was offered a job as a lawman and she was pregnant with a son. My grandfather was born in 1890. That man was my mentor.”

“Now why the heck is Terry telling me this?, I can hear you thinking. I’ll tell you.
My grandfather was searching for the true religion most of his adult life. He invited religious people to our house and sat me down with him as they gave their sales pitch and explained what they were about.
I’ve seen them all:
Mormons, Theosophists, Baptists, Methodists, Priests, Pentecostals---well, you get the idea. After awhile they all melt together in my mind as people completely sincere and utterly convinced what they believe is absolutely 100% correct. Rigidly convinced!

So, I just wanted you to know I didn’t fall off the turnip truck Monday morning all wide-eyed and eager. I’m not a member of any church. I don’t hate God. I have no ax to grind. I have the same intellectual curiosity as my grandfather--but--I’m neither naive nor a know-it-all.
So, please indulge me just ONE QUESTION before we start--okay?”

Cheerful Earl seemed to enjoy something different coming his way. He was up for it. Brother Bill, on the other hand, not so much.

I got the go ahead.

“Thank you. Here is my question. My grandfather told me something I was to never forget. The most important thing in life is intellectual honesty.
What is it?
“Intellectual honesty is a humble willingness to be WRONG (pause for effect) when facts and evidence go against your most cherished ideas and beliefs.
So here’s my question for the both of you.
(Pause for effect)

“ARE YOU WILLING TO BE WRONG? Or is that just my job this evening?”

BOOM!
_______

All of that was not rehearsed, it was improvised--straight out of my heart.
The two men, to their credit, didn’t take it as a throw down for a fight or even a bullying tactic.
The JW’s were comfortable they were right and completely trained in such a way as to be confident they could demonstrate facts and evidence were on THEIR SIDE.

What they didn’t know was that I would never let them jump into their page-flipping barrage of Scripture reading narrative. Nope. Ain’t gonna happen.

So, in a nutshell, every time one of these guys picked up their Silver Sword New World Translation Bible, I would hold up my hand like a traffic cop and put them on pause while I said something or other. It was sort of like I was saying, “Hold on just a few seconds and let me finish my point before you read that” but I wasn’t EVER going to let them start reading.

I can’t remember all the details of that hour because it was all over the map.
I just know one thing--at a certain point--I could see a cloud of suspicion descend on Brother Bill’s face. It tightened up like a drawstring bag and he stopped me with a bold question.

“Have you ever studied with Jehovah’s Witnesses before?” (I think his question was really more of an accusation.)

I had to decide how much I would tell him. I had pretty much determined to use Theocratic War strategy. That’s a fancy way of saying the end would have to justify the means. If cornered, I would pull off my Batman cowl and let them stare into Bruce Wayne’s face.

Game Over and it would all be a big waste of my time.

Here’s what I more or less explained to Brother Bill.

“I mentioned to Earl on Monday, my best friend in Elementary and High School was a Jehovah’s Witness. He was always going on about things such as….”

(I realized suddenly, this was a GREAT opportunity to use my 70 years of experience and show Earl how beliefs had changed in the Organization!)

“Did I know Jesus didn’t have a beard? That seemed really important to him the Jehovah’s Witnesses knew that and all the other churches were wrong.”

As predicted--Earl laughed and denied the Watchtower ever taught anything so silly.
Brother Bill, however, knew better.

Ahhhh, I love it!
I got to watch Bill explain to Earl why such a stupid teaching was taught and later dropped.

Golden Moment! I simply sat and watched. All I needed was popcorn and a beer.

“Terry--what was your friend’s name?”

This could be tricky--very tricky. My best friend was a well-known and beloved Jehovah’s Witness for 60+ years. I could compromise my cover easily by telling him. But heck--sooner or later it was going to be a big reveal anyway. I told him.

Nothing came of it, however, and Brother Bill was satisfied my familiarity with Witnesses had a genuine origin and explanation. He finally got right to the point.

“So, if you think you already know all about us--why are we here, Terry? What can we do for you?”

That was quite a moment.
Indeed. What is the answer to that question?
My head was spinning with possible replies.

“ Well Bill, Earl wanted to ask me some questions when he rang my doorbell and he’s a very nice man. He gave this brochure (I had it ready) and told me to see if I had any questions. I read it cover to cover and...I DO HAVE QUESTIONS. But before you two stack up a pile of answers--what I would really love to do is have a DISCUSSION instead of a lecture. I need a well-reasoned exchange and not a litany of doctrine recited from memory. Are you guys able to sit and reason with me or do I just have to surrender and agree with you? THAT is the real reason you’re here. Come let us reason together--but don’t sell me swamp land or a bridge to nowhere”

BOOM!
___________

The next fifteen minutes or so mostly consisted of the boys trying to grab their Bible and get me to read along. As mentioned--it wasn’t going down. Rope-a-dope can be effective as long as you’re talking at the same time and directing attention toward a weakness in their position.

“Your brochure says that what mankind needs is for God’s government to wipe all the wicked people off the Earth. That seems to be Jehovah’s Witnesses answer to everything: Armageddon.

I HAVE A QUESTION OF WELL-REASONED LOGIC which brings this solution into jeopardy. Want to hear it?”

I have never seen two happier people than Earl and Bill. All I had to do is toss them my softball question and they’d knock it over the fence. They couldn’t wait!

“Sure, we’d love to hear it.”

“Jehovah already tried that solution and it didn’t work the first time, so why would he think it would work any better the second time?”

Smiles vanished. Wrinkled foreheads scrunched. What sort of dumb question was this?

“I’m talking about Noah’s Flood. That was the first Armageddon. God wiped the wicked off the earth completely: every man, woman, child, suckling baby, and all the wicked animals too like bunny rabbits, deer, kittens, and with all those drowned floating corpses God’s master plan was set into motion.
But guys--come on!
Noah was righteous and a man of faith--just like Jehovah’s Witnesses are and when all the wicked started to rot they thought their problems were over. But let’s be honest--the wickedness STARTED ALL OVER AGAIN until---well, Trump got elected, didn’t he?”
I smiled--but the two men sitting at the table weren’t laughing. I kept talking…

“I’m just sayin’...divine holocaust on humanity didn’t solve mankind’s problem AT ALL.
Isn’t it the definition of insanity to keep on doing something that doesn’t work and hoping you’ll get a different outcome? Armageddon one, two, three or a thousand is the SAME plan...Where am I going wrong in my reasoning here?”

Tick-tock, tick-tock…

I swear to you--if I’m lying I’m dying. It was very quiet.

Then, Bill looked at his watch!

“Terry, we didn’t get around to reading from God’s prophetic word in the Bible or you’d already know our answer. We’d like to talk to you some more but our time is at end.”

Earl, I could clearly see (or think I saw) wanted to stick around and discuss my question. I mean, I may be projecting or wishful thinking--but--he gave Bill a bit of resistance which was immediately shut down.

Smiles, chit-chat, small talk, slow walk to front door. Hands shook, nods, thin promises to “get together soon” and ----they were gone like the white when the snow melts.

_________

I was absolutely 100% exhausted after only one hour. All the tiredness just chopped me down like a tree. I’ve never felt anything quite so heavy.
What just happened?
Was this good, bad, in the middle?
Are they disgusted, confused, angry, wised-up and determined not to return?

I’m confused, I know that.
I’m not sure I can handle the tension. Yes--I was very very tense the whole time; wound up and tighter than a coiled spring.
I don’t know if I wasted my time and theirs or if seeds are planted.

I’ve got no perspective at all right now.
I woke up and started writing this about 2:30 this morning.
I thought I would remember better. I don’t. I really sleepy right now.

That’s all for now.

2

Howard Hughes and the Lure of his Estate

by TerryWalstrom in

jw
friends

the lure of money--lots of it (this day in history 36 years ago.).

howard hughes was an aviator, manufacturer, film producer/director and famous recluse.

when he died of kidney failure in 1976, he was a multi-billionaire.. he passed away unmarried and childless and surrounded by employees he felt he could trust only because they were members of the mormon church.

TerryWalstrom

Hughes, in many ways, was luckier than he was smart. He was forced by the Feds to divest himself of TWA when the stock was at its highest and he made more money than he ever had before.
Had he treated Noah Dietrick better (stock) he'd never have had to turn to the (shudder) Mormons and Robert Mayheu. It was the beginning of the end.
His aides could see clearly that he was dying and didn't lift a finger. That's murder any way you slice it.

31

The Dub At My Door (is back for Return Visit)

by TerryWalstrom in

the dub at my door ___________________i’d rather have a root canal than agree to a sit down with an active jehovah’s witness.i’m an ex-jw.

for good reason.

fool me once....i’m an activist and an author of a book or two exposing and vilifying the destructive jw cult organization.yet i agreed.

TerryWalstrom

If I need to change the subject and put them on a different brain wave, I've got some lead-ins.

1. "Let me ask you what I think is an interesting question. If you were absolutely certain God was talking to you and he told you to kill one of your family members...would you obey? and Why or why not?"
(This is to set up a dynamic in which the Governing Body can be seen to be people who equivalently "hear God telling them something" and proceed merely on their faith it is Jehovah. IF THE ANSWER IS "no" (which a sane person would have to give) it also means the GB's predictions and changes of doctrine would reflect the "voices in their head" rather than ACTUAL directions from Jehovah.

2, "Are the religious scholars among Jehovah's Witnesses affiliated with a particular seminary or is it all homebrew?"
I can insert these PRRI poll results:https://www.prri.org/research/american-religious-landscape-christian-religiously-unaffiliated/

3. "Going door to door, as you do, you probably run into problems with women asking about the problems your church is having with child molesters. Right? "
(Cite PRRI Poll: Women are about twice as likely as men to cite the clergy sexual-abuse scandal as an important reason they left their childhood faith (26% vs. 13%, respectively).

Note Pivot to Australian Commission Findings "Have you followed those hearings?"

6

A find on Fred Franz's "system of things"

by careful in

i was looking at the footnote in the 3rd ed.

of weymouth's nt (1912) on an unrelated topic and i happened on the phrase "the passing away of the present system of things" (p. 659 n. 2).

when i was in, i remember reading that the nwt "committee" (= f. franz) came up with that "system of things" rendering of the greek aion from john parkhurst's very old lexicon.

TerryWalstrom

31

The Dub At My Door (is back for Return Visit)

by TerryWalstrom in

the dub at my door ___________________i’d rather have a root canal than agree to a sit down with an active jehovah’s witness.i’m an ex-jw.

for good reason.

fool me once....i’m an activist and an author of a book or two exposing and vilifying the destructive jw cult organization.yet i agreed.

TerryWalstrom

I got a text this morning and Cheerful Earl and an older man (elder?) would like to "drop by". I gave the okay. So, thumbs up to those who predicted this!

I've planned a Hannibal style ambush. (Not the psychopath, the Carthaginian general).

I've got three traps set. Any one of which, if sprung, should lead to topics which will place an Elder in a defensive posture.

Keeping 2 of these creatures off balance is like juggling chainsaws!

2

Howard Hughes and the Lure of his Estate

by TerryWalstrom in

jw
friends

the lure of money--lots of it (this day in history 36 years ago.).

howard hughes was an aviator, manufacturer, film producer/director and famous recluse.

when he died of kidney failure in 1976, he was a multi-billionaire.. he passed away unmarried and childless and surrounded by employees he felt he could trust only because they were members of the mormon church.

TerryWalstrom

THE LURE OF MONEY--LOTS OF IT (This day in history 36 years ago.)

HOWARD HUGHES was an aviator, manufacturer, film producer/director and famous recluse. When he died of kidney failure in 1976, he was a multi-billionaire.

He passed away unmarried and childless and surrounded by employees he felt he could trust only because they were members of the Mormon church. I might add, by all accounts, Hughes was suffering from mental illness and drug addiction when he passed. He had been a notorious womanizer, hypochondriac, and germaphobe. His corpse revealed neither his hair, toenails or fingernails had been cut in years. Oh--and his closet was filled with jars of his own urine. Make of that what you will.
________

What were Hughes’ intentions as to the disposition of his estate? As far as anybody knew, all that money (billions!) was up for grabs unless somebody could produce a Last Will and Testament. Hughes’ personal aide explained to probate court his boss had told him he had made out a will but being of a suspicious nature, had refused to tell him the location of that document.

There are two popular sayings which now spring to mind:
1. Necessity is the mother of invention 2. Behind every great fortune, there are great crimes.
________________

Enter: Melvin Dummar.

Melvin Dummar was a gas station attendant who claimed to have found a man stranded in the Nevada desert one day hitchhiking. He rescued the man, drove him to the Sands Hotel and “loaned” him a quarter. According to Dummar, before he left, the hitchhiker revealed himself to be Howard Hughes.

Mere days after Howard Hughes died, an envelope appeared at the headquarters of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Howard Hughes Last Will and Testament was contained therein. The text of this document had many curious anomalies. Perhaps the most curious of all was the name of one Melvin Dummar (name misspelled as Du Mar) who was to receive $156 million dollars.
10 handwriting experts were called who verified the Will and attributed various oddities to Hughes’ medical and mental problems.

Ah but--not so fast!

A carbon copy of an unsigned Will was produced by the executives of Hughes Medical Institute (a tax shelter) leaving his estate to that charity and its executives! $2 Billion.

A battle of Wills commenced in court. The Melvin Dummar Will bestowed $156 million of Hughes’ fortune to establish a home for orphan children, $156 million to the Mormon Church as well as Dummar, and other awards to the Boy Scouts of America and Hughes’ ex-wives and a fourth of the estate to four Universities.

A notorious and scandalous battle had begun.

By the time the court ruled, accusations of fraud and malfeasance had been hurled by both sides. An FBI investigator had determined Howard Hughes’ employees had recalled his sudden appearance disheveled, sunburned and indisposed from a day of checking out several mines he had purchased and also near Hughes’ favorite brothel, on the day Dummar had said he’d found Hughes hitchhiking in the desert.

All of which was ignored and overruled by the court. The so-called Mormon Will was invalidated and a jury declared it a forgery.

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=3258087&itype=NGPSID

___________

Perhaps the strangest testimony offered in court is described in this article from The Washington Post, September 5, 1981:
_____________

"The woman before Judge Gregory almost 60 years later was in her early 60s. The left side of her curly hair was blond, the right side black, apparently a combination of two different wigs.

On top sat a straw hat festooned with multicolored feathers. Her silver blouse bore a large Confederate flag on the back. Over that, she wore a gold lame jacket, which was split down the back to reveal the flag. She had on tan silk culottes along with sandals, but no hose.

One pair of glasses perched on her nose and a larger pair of sunglasses covered those; another pair was stuck on the brim of her hat. She was weighed down with necklaces, bracelets, charms and assorted turquoise jewelry, and large, long looped rings dangled from her ears.

A camera hung from her neck. She claimed she had dated presidents Eisenhower and Kennedy and had been caught by her husband in bed with Elvis Presley. She said she is the mother of Howard Hughes, come to claim her rightful inheritance.
She was not alone. More than 600 alleged wives, sons, daughters, first, second, third, fourth and fifth cousins lined up in Gregory's small courtroom on the fifth floor of the family law center on the north edge of downtown Houston with their hands out, trying to claim a share of the Hughes fortune.

And those were just the ones who showed up in person or sent a lawyer. Gregory held his hands about two feet apart to indicate the size of the stack of letters he received from others claiming to be Hughes long-lost relatives.
What brought this strange parade of petitioners to Houston was the lure of money, lots of it."
____________________

It wasn’t until 1981 that a court awarded 6 1/3 % of Hughes’ estate to three sisters. Over the years, over 600 protests over the will had been heard. A probate Judge awarded 71 ½ % to Hughes’ paternal heirs, 16 first cousins, while the attorneys handling the case ended up with 40% of their client’s shares.

ATTORNEY'S always seem to come out ahead.
___________
I have personally read over 40 books about this Billionaire weird beard.
This book: I CAUGHT FLIES FOR HOWARD HUGHES is by far the greatest at being entertaining.

https://pictures.abebooks.com/isbn/9780872163577-us-300.jpg

___________

Movie: MELVIN AND HOWARD
http://vidto.me/7g8xchmesm3y.html

31

The Dub At My Door (is back for Return Visit)

by TerryWalstrom in

the dub at my door ___________________i’d rather have a root canal than agree to a sit down with an active jehovah’s witness.i’m an ex-jw.

for good reason.

fool me once....i’m an activist and an author of a book or two exposing and vilifying the destructive jw cult organization.yet i agreed.

TerryWalstrom

If this Dub was any other run-of-the-mill brain-dead robot I would have given him my Apostate speech:

"Let me just stop you there before you get too deep into your message, my friend.
In the interests of full disclosure, I used to do exactly what you're doing today. I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses back in the 60's and 70's. I even spent time in Federal Prison over the Conscientious Objector Christian "neutrality" principle which was in effect back then. I was a full-time Pioneer as well. So I am quite familiar with what you are offering me."
I stop at that point and see if they are curious or can't wait to get away from door.

If they are curious I add a little bit more about the run up to 1975 and how the Earth was going to be too overpopulated and people would be starving by 1975 and how it was the End of 6,000 years of human history and Bible studies were only to last a maximum of 6 mos. because time was so short. And how NOTHING happened and the Watchtower and GB said NOTHING for almost 2 years while we all waited for the other shoe to drop.

I never get very far into details before they are inching toward the exit :)

One Dub said rather haughtily, "Yeah, some of the weaker Brothers and Sisters were only hanging around to save their own ass--they didn't love Jehovah."

I replied, "I think that's called Salvation, isn't it? That's the central message of Christianity, saving your ass. As far as not loving Jehovah, I think you're missing the point. All of the predictions ever made by the Watchtower have been made IN THE NAME of JEHOVAH and they turned out to be a lie. Why would an intelligent person want to stick around for more and more lies? Every false prophecy is sold as Jehovah's loving provision. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice---hell no!"

31

The Dub At My Door (is back for Return Visit)

by TerryWalstrom in

the dub at my door ___________________i’d rather have a root canal than agree to a sit down with an active jehovah’s witness.i’m an ex-jw.

for good reason.

fool me once....i’m an activist and an author of a book or two exposing and vilifying the destructive jw cult organization.yet i agreed.

TerryWalstrom

IF the Bible is a collection of hearsay, the core basis of Jehovah's Witnesses is opinion
.
1. The Faithful and Discreet Slave is consequently granting itself power based on human opinion (self-deception).

2. The reason constant doctrinal changes occur and prophetic dates fail is human opinion is fallible no matter how sincerely believed.

3. Only JW's old enough to have lived through dramatic failures and dogma changes fully appreciate the plausibility of this statement.

In view of the above, debate with JW's is two-mindsets clashing in two separate magisteria or jurisdictions.
This being:

A. Ex-JW who has seen the human error and investigated evidence which debunked claims of divine authority. A so-called "Apostate" is NOT really a renegade against God.

B. The convinced (i.e.faithful and loyal) JW imagines himself to be representing an honest organization.

For person A, person B is deluded although honest. For person B, person A is Evil and fighting against a truly necessary work.

How then can any agreement be possible since their separate realities clash?

In my opinion, the core issue is AUTHORITY and consequently AUTHORIZATION.

1. The Bible, if really the Word of God, must contain necessary Truth and somewhere there is a pure understanding to be found and cherished and promoted.

2. The Bible, if only a human document, may contain historical wisdom and ethical ideas, but cannot purport to be anything other than a competing philosophy in the marketplace of ideas. It stands or falls on a case by case application.

MY TASK is to lay out those two alternatives and require evidence to support all claims.

A TRUE Bible (Divinely Authored) would never fail any test and would stand up against all competing systems.
A corrupt human document BIBLE would break down historically, and logically in terms of internal consistency with reality, plus supernatural knowledge (data) would jump out of the text beyond Bronze Age wisdom.

All the above is sort of my road map toward a possibility of testing foundational arguments. An intellectually honest person would agree in advance to accept where the evidence landed regardless of one's prior position or belief.