I "preesh" all the well-wishes.
If it weren't for Ex-Dubs in the world, I'd actually have zero acquaintances or friends who could begin to understand that wack, weird and warped journey.
Much thanks!
TerryWalstrom
JoinedPosts by TerryWalstrom
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49
My 71st Birthday Confessional
by TerryWalstrom ini was born january 15, 1947in mt.
carmel hospital, detroit, michigan.. within six months of my birth, my mother would bundle her baby boy into a blanket and board an american airlines propeller-driven plane--in effect, leaving my father behind--to return to her hometown, ft. worth, texas.. my dad had an excellent job working for cadillac as an inspector.
it was a union job.
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TerryWalstrom
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49
My 71st Birthday Confessional
by TerryWalstrom ini was born january 15, 1947in mt.
carmel hospital, detroit, michigan.. within six months of my birth, my mother would bundle her baby boy into a blanket and board an american airlines propeller-driven plane--in effect, leaving my father behind--to return to her hometown, ft. worth, texas.. my dad had an excellent job working for cadillac as an inspector.
it was a union job.
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TerryWalstrom
JaniceA4 hours ago4 hours ago
Happy birthday, Terry. Are you the guy that told us the Starbucks that you hang out in?
_______
I recently moved, JaniceA!
I left behind that dadblamed Crow, Edgar!
I'm trying to grow accustomed to the local Starbucks. I don't know anybody there since I left all my chess buddies behind too. -
49
My 71st Birthday Confessional
by TerryWalstrom ini was born january 15, 1947in mt.
carmel hospital, detroit, michigan.. within six months of my birth, my mother would bundle her baby boy into a blanket and board an american airlines propeller-driven plane--in effect, leaving my father behind--to return to her hometown, ft. worth, texas.. my dad had an excellent job working for cadillac as an inspector.
it was a union job.
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TerryWalstrom
I've promised myself I'll finally release my entire JW memoirs this year after working on it almost four years.
My working title is:
A FUNNY THING HAPPENED TO ME
ON MY WAY TO ARMAGEDDON -
49
My 71st Birthday Confessional
by TerryWalstrom ini was born january 15, 1947in mt.
carmel hospital, detroit, michigan.. within six months of my birth, my mother would bundle her baby boy into a blanket and board an american airlines propeller-driven plane--in effect, leaving my father behind--to return to her hometown, ft. worth, texas.. my dad had an excellent job working for cadillac as an inspector.
it was a union job.
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TerryWalstrom
When I see old JW's from my era, they invariably look like the toothpaste tube; squeezed and rolled. Used. Used up.
None of them appears healthy.
Maybe it's just my perception. Dunno.
My point?
I feel like--with all my ups and downs--I've done much better in life (actually living) than the 'faithful' Dubs. I can look back with incredible memories of a life well-lived and I have a great many stories to tell.
I always want to say to my generation from my old Kingdom Hall:
"Hey--did Armageddon ever arrive?"
Old Dubs don't seem to be much more than ghosts of Xmas past.
It requires an extraordinary talent for cognitive dissonance.
So, bottom line, I can't complain.
I jumped ship and never looked back.
Smartest thing a soul can do. -
49
My 71st Birthday Confessional
by TerryWalstrom ini was born january 15, 1947in mt.
carmel hospital, detroit, michigan.. within six months of my birth, my mother would bundle her baby boy into a blanket and board an american airlines propeller-driven plane--in effect, leaving my father behind--to return to her hometown, ft. worth, texas.. my dad had an excellent job working for cadillac as an inspector.
it was a union job.
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TerryWalstrom
I was born January 15, 1947
in Mt. Carmel Hospital, Detroit, Michigan.Within six months of my birth, my mother would bundle her baby boy into a blanket and board an American Airlines propeller-driven plane--in effect, leaving my father behind--to return to her hometown, Ft. Worth, Texas.
My Dad had an excellent job working for Cadillac as an inspector. It was a Union job. It paid well. But his wife (my mom) refused to continue living in his house because his alcoholic mother lived there. Dad left his secure employment and flew to Ft.Worth to reunite.
Mom and Dad moved in with my maternal grandparents.
Those grandparents pretty much reared me.
Dad got a job making 1/15th his previous working wage.
He had to walk five miles to get to work as an auto reupholsterer.
Mom worked in a Donut shop, in a Carnival, as a waitress.According to Mom's story, Dad lasted in Cowtown about six weeks and threw in the towel and moved back to Detroit. He got his old job back and sent her money to return when she got her head straight.
According to him (I met him 25 years later), she spent the money on new clothes and told him to send more cash for plane tickets. She spent that too and he was done with her (and, consequently: me.)None of the above is at all interesting to you but it fascinates me. I guess this is because I got off to a lousy start in life without a father in a world where DIVORCE was shameful.
For the first 21 years of my life, I felt inferior to my peers who had both a Mom and a Dad.I was extremely shy and backward socially in elementary school but I made perfect grades. That was my compensating principle: You are better than I am--but I am smarter than you.
I was the school spelling champ. I could memorize anything.
I increased my vocabulary to the point nobody could understand a word I spoke or wrote.
Congratulations Terry, for stupid over-compensation.My best friend, Johnny, induced me gradually to become absorbed into a seemingly friendly and righteous religious organization (cult) of Jehovah's Witnesses. For me at that time--it seemed like self-betterment.
I learned (was indoctrinated) to go door to door talking to strangers about how Armageddon was coming. I was schooled in public speaking and how to prepare and deliver sermons.
I was privately counseled to refuse induction into the Armed Forces and got myself sentenced to 6 years in Federal Prison. I 'served' time from 67 to 69 and was paroled.I married my best friend's sister.
We created three incredible babies and I worked as a janitor, a mobile home builder, and a bricklayer for four years. Simultaneously, I was a full-time (one hundred hours per month) minister of Jehovah's Witnesses.I lost my F-ing mind!
Talk about s*itholes? My LIFE was one.
I moved my entire family away from Texas (and I hoped the influence of the JW's) to California. I determined to become an artist.Life changed dramatically. I was reborn as a human being.
My wife was still a devout Witness. Our marriage fell entirely apart.
I could no longer even pretend.You can't win for losing, it seems.
Either my life has been a stinking failure or it was some kind of raggedy-ass drama of survival with PTSD. (I had been assaulted in prison.)I either did the best I could with what I had--or I'm simply the remains of a brainwashed cult victim who could never quite regain sanity.
Tomorrow, I turn 71.
What in the world, I ask you, do I have to celebrate other than surviving?
I have exactly what I deserve and nothing more.My children and grandchildren are the real miracles in my life.
I have nothing to complain about worth the telling.
I'm still healthy and have most of my hair. I'm not yet fat.
I lost 2 of my best friends to death last year.
I cannot acquire or maintain any significant other in my life because I'm pretty much impossible to deal with.Why am I writing this?
Beats me, other than to bring myself up to date in personal inventory.
Turning 71 means you stop and take stock.I appreciate all my Ex-JW friends who stop to read what I write and post. You help me more than you know simply by BEING THERE as a sense of 'family of friends' for me to talk to and 'share' thoughts with.
I guess if I didn't have stories left to tell or people to listen, I could pack it in and join Elon Musk in a colony on Mars.
Thank you, folks, for listening.That's my birthday confessional
:) -
2
Another Hollywood Memory
by TerryWalstrom inbilly hork galleries, circa 1980, beverly hills, ca.the grandfather and his grandson poised outside the gallery window catching my eye-- i recognize paul henreid as the older gentleman in the beret, ascot, and dark glasses.instinctively i smile broadly.the grandson is possibly 10 years old.
he's dignified and moves with a rather impressive, posture--he enters the gallery speaking to me with a sort of etonion diction.
"my grandfather wishes to inquire about the object d'art in your window display.
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TerryWalstrom
I spent the day thinking about my impressions and I mostly have decided that it must be very difficult to be a mere human being once you've attained legendary celebrity status. Having to use the loo is all too human.
That triggered a memory of something I read about the invasion of the Aztec kingdom by Cortez and his army. The Aztecs were, at first, convinced these were gods...that is--until they caught sight of the soldiers urinating and defecating. At that point, the awe vanished and it was determined they could be attacked and killed.
I digress, however...
Henreid was rather taciturn and it was impossible to get a reading on his intent. I think your pretext hypothesis makes a great deal of sense. Nothing more was said about art. In fact, the grandfather and grandson, as I seem to recall, left unceremoniously without any motions toward shopping :) -
2
Another Hollywood Memory
by TerryWalstrom inbilly hork galleries, circa 1980, beverly hills, ca.the grandfather and his grandson poised outside the gallery window catching my eye-- i recognize paul henreid as the older gentleman in the beret, ascot, and dark glasses.instinctively i smile broadly.the grandson is possibly 10 years old.
he's dignified and moves with a rather impressive, posture--he enters the gallery speaking to me with a sort of etonion diction.
"my grandfather wishes to inquire about the object d'art in your window display.
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TerryWalstrom
Billy Hork Galleries, circa 1980, Beverly Hills, CA.
The grandfather and his grandson poised outside the gallery window catching my eye-- I recognize Paul Henreid as the older gentleman in the beret, ascot, and dark glasses.
Instinctively I smile broadly.
The grandson is possibly 10 years old. He's dignified and moves with a rather impressive, posture--he enters the gallery speaking to me with a sort of Etonion diction.
"My grandfather wishes to inquire about the object d'art in your window display."
"You're grandfather is the magnificent Warner Bros. actor Paul Henreid. I instantly recognized him. He's most welcome to inquire..."
The grandson's expression flickered like a lantern flame when an errant gust of air wafts past. He excused himself and exited.
___
I observe the silent conversation on the sidewalk outside.
The old man's posture stiffens and he becomes perhaps an inch taller.
His chin elevates as the head tilts at a remarkably attractive angle.
The gallery door opens and in glides what--for all practical purposes--is the embodiment of Golden Hollywood magnificence.
For a moment, I feel as though I must curtsey or kiss a ring--so regal and majestic is the presentation of this person by his young ward.
This old fellow's career has been over for at least a decade. His fame hath withered and no bright klieg lights stab the sky with glory at a world premiere any longer. Could it be possible nobody recognizes him at all?
Does he crave just one scintilla of admiration--perhaps?
___
Actor Paul Henreid has the impeccable bearing of a man reared in palaces and palatial estates by Aristocratic forebears. His blood surely is royal blue!
I decided at that moment to do something one never does around celebrities in California because it marks you as a yokel.
I became modestly effusive, reciting a few of his more remarkable career highlights. (I have that kind of nerd's brain which commands factoids by the bushel basketful.)
___
"Paul Georg Julius Freiherr von Hernreid Ritter von Wasel-Waldingau, Warner Studios' remarkable top-tier leading man, and immortal actor of stage, screen, and television."
I proceeded to lay it on with a trowel in serious admiration--not mockery.
His cheeks flushed.
He extended his hand in an odd way--not for shaking so much as for benediction. I half-clasped it.
He then took two steps forward in what I took to be a gesture of intimacy or even conspiratorial camaraderie.
His head leaned forward as he was about a couple of inches shorter than I and he was going to say something meant only for my ears--so, I lean down just a fraction and listened.
____
The entire encounter was quite brief yet immortalized in memory for me.
If I'm objective with myself and shake off the sentimental aspect of our encounter, I'd have to say the man appeared for all practical purposes like the stereotype of an Old World has-been clinging to self-importance with pretensions and out of style tweed with patches on his elbows. The ascot and dark glasses and beret?
Oh my, yes.
BUT NO!
This was a true aristocrat! A man out of his time. A time traveler on the final leg of an awesome journey toward immortality.
____
Paul Henreid had been toppled from his perch by Senator Joe McCarthy and his Communist witch hunt in the 1950's. He made the famous blacklist. His plummet to small roles in less significant pictures took the shine off the golden boy.
His dignity was preserved intact.
Obviously, it was what once was termed, "good breeding."
Manners, dignity, and just a whiff of pretentious apotheosis which comes from Hollywood stardom is certain his to own.
When I tell this story, I have always elected to withhold the words Paul Henreid whispered to me in the gallery. It more or less works against the event and snaps the reader out of the moment.
He asked me a question. It surprised me.
He had listened as I spoke to him --ABOUT him-- for those few seconds, troweling on the fan-drool impassively reddening with modesty...perhaps. Then, he'd leaned in and asked me:
"Do you have a privée (toilet) I could use?"
Ahhh--truly unforgettable memory!
_____
Actor Henreid died about 12 years later at the age of 84. He had 2 Hollywood Walk of Fame plaques; one for movies, and the other for TV.
His movies include:
Now, Voyager and Casablanca -
315
Flat earth vs round earth
by Jrjw inmy brother has been talking about the earth being flat and some big conspiracy going on to make people beieve otherwise.
what are people's thoughts on this?.
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TerryWalstrom
(Note: when I use the quotation marks around a word such as "fact" it means seemingly.)
I spent an idle fifteen minutes one day watching one of the many Flat Earth videos posted on YouTube.
I was "lucky" to find one of the "best" ones.
Let me explain the mindset.
1. You're simply curious, you watch one or two videos.
2. You become slightly intrigued by the "proof" reasons / facts. So, a casual investigation commences purely for the purpose of being able to dismiss the whole thing.
3. You now find that you are experiencing a "disturbance in the force." In other words, some debate points are a little too close to scaring you. You find your firm-foundation-footing is an imbalanced.
4. Fear and wonderment creep in. Now you can't let go. This thing simply cannot be real! But--but--you have to learn more. And more. And more...
______
That's what I went through. I spent about 4 hours on this roller-coaster.
_____
There is parallel with becoming a JW.
We followed those steps from total renunciation to curiosity to an investigation, etc.
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No, the Earth is not Flat.
So, what is going on?
1. NASA has fudged in the past with photos and videos purely for patriotic propaganda purposed and NOT for a coverup.
Photos from space have been Photoshopped to the very last pixel.
The Space Administration hasn't been upfront soon enough to escape the conspiracy activists who want to use that for their purposes.
2. Ignorance of the ordinary citizen about Science. You see, most of the truly astounding scientific discovery has been COUNTER-intuitive.
We see the Earth around us as flat. I mean--it LOOKS...flat. So, historically--it was an easy mistake. The idea of a globe with people standing on the "other" side--at first--sounds preposterous. So, there's that. And so on.
3. Almost any argument can be framed expertly to take advantage of tiny flaws which keep adding up (by asking more and more detailed questions.)
4. The beauty of the Flat Earth argument is how it has a surprise ending.
GOD! Yeah, God. People "need" Big Daddy psychologically.
Anyway--if you find the right (right?) videos you'll go on a wild ride and probably have an exhilarating trip if you keep your mind open.
For me--the one "fact" which shook me to my very soul was this:
What if I were to tell you that most, if not all, of Challenger’s 7 crew members are still alive and thriving in their new professions, contrary to what we’ve been told?It’s one thing that one of the Challenger’s crew members resembles someone alive today. For that, we can chalk it up to a coincidence.
It is another thing entirely that SIX members of the Challenger crew have doppelgängers who are alive, in some cases with exactly the same names (Richard Scobee, Michael J. Smith, Judith Resnick, Sharon McAuliffe). What are the chances of that?
_____SNOPES____All this conspiracy exercise really demonstrates is that you can sometimes find two people with the same name who bear a passing resemblance to each other. To wit:
Born on May 19, 1939, Commander Francis Richard Scobee was 46 when he died in the Challenger explosion. He would be 75 years old if he were alive today.Strangely, there’s a man also named Richard Scobee, the CEO of a Chicago marketing-advertising company called Cows in Trees, who bears a striking resemblance (factoring in the 30-year timelapse) to Commander Richard Scobee — same high forehead, same eyebrows, same wide-set eyes that are slightly tilted down in their outer corners.
These two Scobees are similar in appearance, but there are distinct differences that can’t be accounted for by the passage of years (such as the difference in ear shapes). Moreover, at the time that Francis Richard Scobee, the former Air Force pilot, was training with NASA as an astronaut and serving as an instructor pilot for the shuttle’s 747 carrier aircraft, Richard Scobee, the current CEO of Cows in Trees, was serving as CEO and President of The Marketing Edge, Inc. in Chicago. The same man couldn’t have been holding down two such disparate jobs, in two widely separated geographic locations, at the same time.
Born on Oct. 21, 1950, Challenger’s mission specialist Ronald McNair, the second African-American astronaut, with a Ph.D. in physics, would be 64 years old if he had not perished in the space shuttle explosion. If Ronald (l) were still alive today, he would look just like this pic of his brother, Carl (r).Yes, the late Ronald McNair looked a lot like his brother, Carl, as many siblings do (but they’re still easy to tell apart, as Carl has an obvious gap in his front teeth that Ronald didn’t). And this proves what, exactly? It might be a curiosity if there were no record of the existence of “Carl McNair” until after the Challenger explosion, but that isn’t the case. Are we supposed to believe that Ronald secretly took over his brother’s identity after the Challenger “accident” and somehow engineered the disappearance of the real Carl? Of course, the real point of this comparison is that the creators of this conspiracy theory couldn’t find a similarly named doppelgänger for Ronald McNair other than his own brother.
Another Challenger mission specialist, Ellison Onizuka, the first Japanese-American astronaut, also has a lookalike brother named Claude. Born on June 24, 1946 in Hawaii, Ellison would be 68 years old today if he had not died in the Challenger explosion. If Ellison were still alive, he would look just like this pic of his younger brother Claude — same eyebrows, same eyes, same crow’s feet wrinkles, same nose, even the same hair-parting.Again, the shocking revelation that someone looked a lot like his brother. And again, the creators of this theory couldn’t find a similarly named doppelgänger for one of the Challenger astronauts other than his own brother.
And now we pause for a pertinent question: Why has Gregory Jarvis been completely skipped over in this accounting of dead Challenger astronauts who are seemingly carrying on today as if nothing had ever happened to them? The simple answer is that it’s because someone couldn’t find any online photographs of another Gregory Jarvis who credibly resembles payload specialist Gregory Jarvis.
Born on April 5, 1949, Challenger mission specialist Judith Arlene Resnik, with a Ph.D. in electrical engineering, was the first Jewish American astronaut to go into space and the second female American astronaut. She would be 66 years old today if she had not died in the explosion.If she were alive today, it is not difficult to imagine that after 29 years, astronaut Judith Resnik would look like Arthur Liman Professor of Law Judith Resnik at Yale Law School — dark curly hair, dark eyes, same eyebrow shape, same lines on both sides of the face extending up from the jaw.
Nobody familiar with either person would confuse these two Judith Resniks with each other, as they have very different facial structures. And while Judith Resnik the electrical engineer was engaged in work and study at RCA, NIH, Xerox, and NASA in the 1970s and 80s, Judith Resnik the lawyer was teaching law school classes at Yale and USC. How someone could have been simultaneously (not to mention secretly) holding down two completely disparate jobs at opposite ends of the country remains unexplained.
Born on Sept. 2, 1948, Sharon Christa McAuliffe was a social studies teacher at Concord High School in New Hampshire when she was selected from more than 11,000 applicants to participate in the NASA Teacher in Space Project. If Challenger had not exploded, she would be the first teacher in space. If she had not died in the Challenger disaster, McAuliffe would be 66 years old today.Well, there’s a Sharon A. McAuliffe, an adjunct professor at Syracuse University College of Law, who kinda looks like an older astronaut McAuliffe, factoring in the 30 years timelapse. Look at the cowlick of hair, sweeping from the center of their hairlines to the left side of their foreheads.
Same problems: These two Sharon McAuliffes don’t really look all that much alike, and while Christa McAuliffe (she went by her middle name rather than “Sharon”) the schoolteacher was obtaining degrees in education from Framingham State College (Massachusetts) and Bowie State University (Maryland), teaching social studies at Concord High School (New Hampshire), and training with NASA, Sharon McAuliffe the lawyer was attending Syracuse University and working for an accounting firm in Syracuse (New York).
This conspiracy narrative concludes by claiming that there are no records in the Social Security Death Index (SSDI) for any of the seven Challenger astronauts:
There is no Social Security Death Index for all 7 Challenger crew members. As far as Social Security is concerned, Francis Richard Scobee, Michael J. Smith, Ronald McNair, Ellison Onizuka, Judith Resnik, Greg Jarvis, and Sharon Christa McAuliffe are still alive. -
13
The Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses of Namibia and legal problems
by TerryWalstrom inthe christian congregation of jehovah’s witnesses of namibia has asserted its right to be exempt as an "employer" for purposes of payment to those who work on its behalf, nor are they responsible (they claim) for filing any social security documents as to wages, hours worked, withholding, etc.in 2014, the congregation asked to be de-registered as such.____it didn't go so well.____on the 16 june 2014, authorities replied to the jw's request by confirming that the appellant is considered an employer in terms of the ss act and consequently should be registered with the employees’ compensation fund established by the employees’ compensation act, 1941, as well as having the order register its members with the maternity, sick leave and death benefit established by the ss act___a ping-pong protest and response commenced with multiple requests for clarification by the dubs and protestations and requests for appeal, etc.____authorities decided this matter was best handled by visiting the premises and investigating for themselves what goes on.____after the "visit" by authorities, nothing was offered by the dubs to change any minds.___the jw's continued to whine and protest and appeal, etc.____the authorities examined the congregation's appeal and made the following evaluation:== in the respondent’s listed grounds of opposition, it noted that the appeal filed by the appellant is not proper as it failed to complete the form 11 as contemplated in rule 17(2)(a) of the rules of this court==___jw's protested and appealed the appeal response which didn't appeal to them.___arguments continued until the following finding was released:the labour amendment act stipulates that:18 ‘for the purposes of this act or any other employment law, until the contrary is proved, an individual who works for or renders services to any other person, is presumed to be an employee of that other person, regardless of the form of the contract or the designation of the individual, if any one or more of the following factors is present:(list of factors attached)____blah-blah-blah-blahfinally:the ss act does not provide for de-registration of employers.
accordingly, logic follows that once an employer has been registered under this act, the obligations created in terms of this act ceases to exist only where the employer (who is a natural person) dies or becomes insolvent or is sequestrated or is liquidated or wound up (where an employer is a juristic person).
employees may be ‘de-registered’ under that employer in the event they die or their services have been terminated._______cut to the chase:accordingly, the appellant cannot pick and choose which laws should apply to them and which not.
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TerryWalstrom
The various corporations fronting for Watchtower have increasingly had their boot on the necks of the "little ones."
If you zoom in for a closeup, the sheeplike JW with the boot mashing its face into the mud has a beaming smile: "Ahhh, serving Jehovah!"If this isn't indicative of Mind Control--what is?
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13
The Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses of Namibia and legal problems
by TerryWalstrom inthe christian congregation of jehovah’s witnesses of namibia has asserted its right to be exempt as an "employer" for purposes of payment to those who work on its behalf, nor are they responsible (they claim) for filing any social security documents as to wages, hours worked, withholding, etc.in 2014, the congregation asked to be de-registered as such.____it didn't go so well.____on the 16 june 2014, authorities replied to the jw's request by confirming that the appellant is considered an employer in terms of the ss act and consequently should be registered with the employees’ compensation fund established by the employees’ compensation act, 1941, as well as having the order register its members with the maternity, sick leave and death benefit established by the ss act___a ping-pong protest and response commenced with multiple requests for clarification by the dubs and protestations and requests for appeal, etc.____authorities decided this matter was best handled by visiting the premises and investigating for themselves what goes on.____after the "visit" by authorities, nothing was offered by the dubs to change any minds.___the jw's continued to whine and protest and appeal, etc.____the authorities examined the congregation's appeal and made the following evaluation:== in the respondent’s listed grounds of opposition, it noted that the appeal filed by the appellant is not proper as it failed to complete the form 11 as contemplated in rule 17(2)(a) of the rules of this court==___jw's protested and appealed the appeal response which didn't appeal to them.___arguments continued until the following finding was released:the labour amendment act stipulates that:18 ‘for the purposes of this act or any other employment law, until the contrary is proved, an individual who works for or renders services to any other person, is presumed to be an employee of that other person, regardless of the form of the contract or the designation of the individual, if any one or more of the following factors is present:(list of factors attached)____blah-blah-blah-blahfinally:the ss act does not provide for de-registration of employers.
accordingly, logic follows that once an employer has been registered under this act, the obligations created in terms of this act ceases to exist only where the employer (who is a natural person) dies or becomes insolvent or is sequestrated or is liquidated or wound up (where an employer is a juristic person).
employees may be ‘de-registered’ under that employer in the event they die or their services have been terminated._______cut to the chase:accordingly, the appellant cannot pick and choose which laws should apply to them and which not.
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TerryWalstrom
The "Organization" started out saying "Religion is a snare and a racket."
Then, when it came to being taxed, they suddenly produced a Charter declaring themselves a religion.
They enjoy all the benefits of a Corporation while exempting themselves from any social burden to provide for the retired elderly lifelong employees who gave everything they had to support the cult.
They show themselves to be exactly what so-called Apostates say they are.