Ditto to what Finkelstein said. I knew after a few replies that it would be pointless to reason with him but I figured I would continue to respond for the JW lurkers here that I am sure view this site.
johnamos
JoinedPosts by johnamos
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154
Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
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154
Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
quote - It cannot be a period of Babylonian domination because we cannot determine a precise year as a beginning of that Period. - end quote
First, Who do you mean when you say "we cannot determine", who is WE?
[Isaiah’s Prophecy 1 p. 253-254 par. 21 – He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.]
Without trying to evade answering directly, please answer the following:
Is the WTS there citing verse 11 and claiming that those 70 years "represent the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination"?
Is the WTS there stating that at the END of those 70 years that that domination comes to its end (will crumble)?
Did the WTS there point out that Babylon came to an END (fell/crumbled) in 539?
If that domination came to an end in 539 and that was the end of the 70 years, then what precise year did the 70 years begin?
I know you will not answer these questions precisely and I know your brain can't fathom that this one WTS excerpt actually shows the correct view of those 70 years (FOR Babylon/NATIONS to serve) and when they are (609-539). It agrees with history and totally contradicts the WTS's spin on their false view of when those 70 years are (607-537).
Let me ask you this though about the other end of this whole argument which is 1914. Do you believe that the 7th trumpet blew in 1914? (Rev 11:15)
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154
Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
quote - The fact is that the biblical evidence proves that 607 BCE is the only possible date for the Fall of Jerusalem - end quote
For 607 to be the date for the fall of Jerusalem then 629 has to be the date used for the fall of Assyria.
609 Haran fell
605 Nebuchadnezzar becomes king
587 18 years later destroys Jerusalem
_____________________________
629 Haran fell
625 Nebuchadnezzar becomes king
607 18 years later destroys Jerusalem
So if you believe 607 is the year Jerusalem fell then you believe 629 is the year for the fall of Assyria, so do you understand that that means Babylon was ruling from 629-539, 90 years.
Jeremiah 25:11 states that the nations would only have to serve Babylon 70 years, that's why we can say that 609 is the correct date for the fall of Assyria which would mean Babylon ruled from 609-539, 70 years and that also means that the fall of Jerusalem was in 587.
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154
Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
quote -The date for Assyria's ending as a World Power is problematic but the accepted Date is 609 BCE and that is fine with me because it has absolutely nothing to do with the beginning of the 70 years. - end quote
Thank you for that answer...and you are just showing that you really have no idea what you are talking about, but by no means please don't stop, PLEASE see this whole thing out.
You say you are fine with saying Assyria ended being the 2nd world power in 609 (which is correct) because it "has absolutely nothing to do with the beginning of the 70 years".
Take note of this first:
[12-1-71 WT p. 715 - This prophecy begins to apply, therefore, after Darius the Mede and Cyrus the Persian brought about the downfall of Babylon in the autumn of the year 539 B.C.E. and the Medo-Persian Empire was established as the Fourth World Power of Bible history. This Empire, which grew to greater size than that of Babylon, eastward and westward and southward, continued its world domination from 539 to 331 B.C.E.]
Notice that the WTS states accurately that the Medo-Persian Empire was established as the 4th world power in 539 with the downfall of Babylon (3rd world power).And they go on to show that Medo-Persian Empire was the 4th world power until 331 and although not stated here it ended in 331 due to Greece overthrowing it and thereby becoming the 5th world power.
Likewise, Babylon defeated Assyria (2nd world power) in 609 thereby becoming the 3rd world power until 539 and as we just read Medo-Persian then became the 4th world power having defeated Babylon.
So if you know that Babylon defeated Assyria in 609 then why do you say that they (Babylon) did not become the 3rd world power until 607 and that they were only a world power for 68 years? Even the WTS states that Babylon's greatest domination period was 70 years long.
Anyway, I hope you are aware that Nabopolassar (Nebuchadnezzar's father) was king and with Nebuchadnezzar when they defeated Assyria in Haran in 609, and Nabopolassar died 4 years later in 605 and that is when Nebuchadnezzar became king and then the Bible account goes on to say that Nebuchadnezzar sacked Judah 18 years after becoming king.
605 -18 = 587... But all here know that the WTS likes to magically add 20 years to 587 to arrive at 607...but that also means that they add 20 years to the Babylon overthrow of Assyria in Haran 609 which would be 629.
629 - 539 = 90 years
So knowing that the WTS stated that Medo-Persian became the 4th world power starting at the point they overthrew Babylon until they were overthrown by Greece...do say that:
Babylon defeated Assyria in 629 and thereby the 3rd world power for 90 years until 539?
Or do you say:
Babylon defeated Assyria in 609 and thereby the 3rd world power for 70 years until 539?
Or do you still say that Babylon became the 3rd world power in 607 for 68 years until 539?
If so, do you say they defeated Assyria in 629 (like the WTS does) or 609?
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154
Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
quote - Yes, you must improve your comprehension skills and pay close attention to the Society's reply to your letter and to my posts mon this subject. - end quote
LOL!!! My letter? Labsto is the one that wrote the letter and started this thread. Maybe you should pay a little closer attention. :)
Anyway, you say Babylon was a world power for 68 years.
Okay, if Assyria was the 2nd world power and Babylon was the 3rd world power and you say that Babylon became a world power in 607, then PLEASE tell me what year did Assyria cease being the 2nd world power?
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154
Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
Quote - try to improve your comprehension skills which are lacking as shown also by your poor understanding of the Society's reply - End quote
LOL!!! Sure thing, I will try to improve. Tell me please though, where have I shown a poor understanding to the 'Society's' reply as it relates to the excerpts that I am citing from them?
The Society states that the 70 years at Jeremiah 25:11,12 represents Babylon's greatest domination period:
[Isaiah’s Prophecy 1 p. 253-254 par. 21 – Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—]
Jehovah said that when those 70 years have been fulfilled he would call Babylon to account:
[Jeremiah 25:11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’12“‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah,]
The Society shows that Jehovah called Babylon to account in 539:
[8-1-81 WT p. 27-28 - “The idol-worshiping Babylonians now were in line for God’s judgment to be executed upon them. That happened in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.”]
Based on that I am showing that the 70 years are from 609 to 539, so please with your far more superior comprehension skills than I, tell me what I am not understanding based on what you are reading above.
Also, PLEASE answer these two questions:
Was Babylon the 3rd world power for 90 years or 70 years?
Did the nations serve Babylon for 90 years or 70 years?
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154
Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
Quote - Jeremiah's prophecy herein is addressed to five surrounding nations of Judah and including the nation of Judah that they could escape Jehovah's judgement by submitting in servitude to the then reigning king, Nebuchadnezzer - End quote
If you think there were only FIVE, then read Jeremiah 25:17-29!
Quote - Jeremiah's texts of the seventy years are applicable to Judah alone - End quote
Not so!
[Jeremiah 25:11... and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years]
[Jeremiah 25:17 And I proceeded to take the cup out of the hand of Jehovah and to make all the nations drink to whom Jehovah had sent me]
Quote - There is simply no basis, in fact, to claim that the 70 years for Judah ended in 539 BCE or began in the fuzzy date of 609 BCE. - End quote
The basis is that the 70 year servitude for the nations (including Judah) was to be in subjection to Babylon.
Were the nations (including Judah) in subjection to Babylon when Assyria was still the 2nd world power?
No there were not, even Babylon itself would have been in subjection to Assyria.
Were the nations (including Judah) in subjection to Babylon when Babylon was the 3rd world power?
YES they were!
Were the nations (including Judah) in subjection to Babylon when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians? (Medo/Persia then became the 4th world power.)
No they were not!
You have read in the WTS excerpts that I cited that the 70 years 'represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination" and that that "domination ended for Babylon in 539 when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians". Therefore the servitude for the nations (including Judah) to be in subjection to Babylon had to be during the time of Babylon's greatest domination period as the 3rd world power which is the time period that the WTS says represents the 70 years, which is 609 - 539.
How is it that you say 609 is a fuzzy date? The WTS clearly state that the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination and that that domination ended for Babylon in 539. What is fuzzy about adding 70 years to 539 and arriving at the year 609?
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154
Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
Did you read it? The point was/is that the nations serving Babylon is not based on them having do be destroyed or its residents having to be carted off to the location of Babylon. The nations serving was a result of recognizing that Babylon was the new world power and had authority over them. They became that 3rd world power with the battle in Haran when they overthrew once and for all Assyria (the then ruling 2nd world power)and that happen in 609.
Tell me something in your own words...you can clearly read that the WTS states that:
[Isaiah’s Prophecy 1 p. 253-254 par. 21 – He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.]
So tell me, since the 70 years mentioned in verse 11 and 12 is said to represent Babylon's greatest domination period and that period is said to have ended in 539, which logically means it started in 609, tell me, why does the WTS say that Jehovah called Babylon to account in 539 and Jehovah says that he would do so when 70 years have been fulfilled and yet you refuse to accept that the 70 years ended in 539?
[Jeremiah 25:11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah,]
[8-1-81 WT p. 27-28 - “The idol-worshiping Babylonians now were in line for God’s judgment to be executed upon them. That happened in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.”]
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154
Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
Additionally read Jeremiah 27:6-14 in regards to why I said:
"All the NATIONS started serving Babylon from the point that Babylon became the 3rd world power which was in 609 and the NATIONS stop serving Babylon when that empire ended which was in 539."
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154
Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
scholar
Quote - The evidence indicates that the 70 years was a period of time of Babylon's domination over Judah with the Jews being deported to Babylon - End quote
LOL!!! Absolutely not.
[Jeremiah 25:11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah,]
Verse 11 says 'THESE NATIONS', that means all the nations at that time would have to serve Babylon those 70 years. And the fact that Jehovah said that when those 70 years had been fulfilled that he would then call Babylon to account proves that 539 must have been the 70th year being that that is the time that Babylon was brought to its end as the 3rd world empire. Add 70 to 539 and you get 609. What happen in 609? Babylon defeated Assyria which was then the ruling 2nd world empire. That means that Babylon was the ruling 3rd world empire for 70 years, from 609 to 539, which is what the WTS and secular chronology state.
[10-1-11 WT – Instead of saying 70 years “at Babylon,” many translations read “for Babylon.” (NIV) Some historians therefore claim that this 70-year period applies to the Babylonian Empire.]
[10-1-11 WT - According to secular chronology, the Babylonians dominated the land of ancient Judah and Jerusalem for some 70 years, from about 609 B.C.E. until 539 B.C.E. when the capital city of Babylon was captured.]
[Isaiah’s Prophecy 1 – …the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination…But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.]
Quote- The 70 years for Tyre only represent a period of Babylon's domination also we do not know the chronology for the domination of Tyre domination and is not identical with the 70 years of Jeremiah. - End quote
Yes Tyre is with the same 70 years of Jeremiah. Verse 11 of ch. 25 says 'THESE NATIONS' but reading down further you read the NATION mentioned by name and verse 22 mentions Tyre.
All the NATIONS started serving Babylon from the point that Babylon became the 3rd world power which was in 609 and the NATIONS stop serving Babylon when that empire ended which was in 539.That matches exactly with what Jehovah said, that the NATONS would serve Babylon 70 years and that is also what the WTS said when saying: "Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination"