Actually the WTS/GB are fulfilling prophecy FAITHFULLY. It is not that of Matt 24:45-47 but rather that of Ezekiel 13:1-16.
johnamos
JoinedPosts by johnamos
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79
Who really is the faithful and discreet* slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?
by Alex Williams inthis statement was answered in a form of a question to a question posed by one of his followers;.
jesus realized that composite slave had to qualify for such an appointment when he came into power of his kingdom promised by jehovah god.
[and they came to life and ruled as kings with the christ+ for 1,000 years].
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79
Who really is the faithful and discreet* slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?
by Alex Williams inthis statement was answered in a form of a question to a question posed by one of his followers;.
jesus realized that composite slave had to qualify for such an appointment when he came into power of his kingdom promised by jehovah god.
[and they came to life and ruled as kings with the christ+ for 1,000 years].
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johnamos
Alex, why do you not address my post? Are you not concerned with what the Scriptures actually say when it comes to what you believe? If you read the two full accounts that Jesus gave you will see that he entrusted over belongings/gave the minsa to slaves not based on any criteria of them already proving to be faithful. Being found faithful is based on when he returns he then will judge what was done with his belongings/the minsa. Also notice that there are only two interactions with the master, first one when he gives the belongings/minsa to the slaves and second one when he returns to judge them based on what they did with them from the time they were given, until the time he returns. That means the time period covered here is from 33 c.e., until his future return at Matt 24:30. That rules out any such time period of 1914/19.
I know you JW's hate the Bible and prefer WTS publications...but give these a read:
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79
Who really is the faithful and discreet* slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?
by Alex Williams inthis statement was answered in a form of a question to a question posed by one of his followers;.
jesus realized that composite slave had to qualify for such an appointment when he came into power of his kingdom promised by jehovah god.
[and they came to life and ruled as kings with the christ+ for 1,000 years].
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johnamos
In regards to Matthew 24:45-47 on the topic of ‘the faithful slave’, verse 45 is merely asking the question of ‘who is’, and verse 46 goes on to state that ‘the slave’ that is found doing so, ‘on the master’s arrival’(future arrival at Matt 24:30), ‘is who’ at that time be found to be ‘faithful’ and appointed over the master’s belongings.
In other words, ‘the slave’ is just a ‘slave’ prior to the master’s arrival and it is up to the master upon his arrival (future arrival at Matt 24:30) to determine what slave/s are ‘faithful or not. It is not up to the slave/s themselves to determine their own faithfulness.
To further demonstrate this, please consider the following scriptures. (Matthew 25:14,19,21,23,26-27 Luke 19:13,15,17,22-23) As can be seen, the master summoned ‘SLAVES’, not faithful ones, nor wicked ones, just ‘SLAVES’. But it is on the master’s arrival that he then determines which of those ‘SLAVES’ were faithful or wicked. The point being is that it is presumptuous for the ‘slave/s’ to consider/call themselves ‘faithful’ presently, when that is something that is for the master to determine/say when he arrives. In fact to the contrary ‘the slaves’ when calling themselves anything, the master himself said what is found at Luke 17:10…
Another point on this is that the terms ‘the faithful and discreet slave class/the faithful and discreet slave /the faithful slave class/the faithful slave/the slave class‘ or ‘Governing Body‘, should not be used as titles…
[12-1-19 WT- “Thousands of the readers of Pastor Russell’s writings believe that he filled the office of “that faithful and wise servant,” and that his great work was giving to the Household of Faith meat in due season. His modesty and humility precluded him from openly claiming this title,]
[6-1-01 WT- Jesus set out the principle: “Do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for your Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among you must be your minister.” (Matthew 23:8-11) A congregation of brothers precludes having a proud clergy class that honors itself with high-sounding titles and elevates itself above a laity.]
Just as Russell’s modesty and humility precluded him from openly claiming such a title, an angel of Jehovah’s that the apostle John fell down to the feet of to worship, and had to be warned not to do so, that angel himself referred to himself as being ‘only a fellow slave’…
Now speaking of the account that John had to be warned by the angel not to worship him (Revelation 22: 8,9) and given the account of the Israelite’s who desired to have a visible image made with the claim that it represented Jehovah, in which Jehovah viewed as idolatry… people today can be guilty of idolatry to an organization (or group of men) that claim to represent Jehovah, by giving it (them) undue devotion, praise, respect, adoration, love, worship, etc…
[9-15-95 WT- ‘The Golden Calf’ And the people said: “All that Jehovah has spoken we are willing to do and be obedient.”—Exodus 24:7. Nevertheless, the Israelites soon sinned against God. They were still encamped at the foot of Mount Sinai. Moses had been on the mountain many days, receiving further instruction from God, and the people pressured Moses’ brother, Aaron, to make a god for them. Aaron complied and made a calf out of gold that the people provided. It was claimed that this idol represented Jehovah. (Psalm 106:20) The next day they offered sacrifices and kept “bowing down to it.” Then they had “a good time.”—Exodus 32:1, 4, 6, 8, 17-19.]
[4-1-07 WT- ‘Showing Due Respect for the Faithful Slave‘ A fundamental reason for showing proper respect for the faithful slave class is that by so doing, we are in fact showing respect for the Master, Jesus Christ.…Therefore, when we loyally submit to the direction of the faithful slave and its Governing Body, we are submitting to Christ, the slave’s Master….For this reason, all in the congregation view it as their sacred duty to follow and uphold the direction coming from the faithful slave and its Governing Body]
[12-1-90 WT- We have the opportunity to show love for our brothers who take the lead in the congregation or in connection with Jehovah’s visible organization worldwide. This includes being loyal to “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matthew 24:45-47) Let us face the fact that no matter how much Bible reading we have done, we would never have learned the truth on our own.]
[11-1-90 WT- Further direction comes from “the faithful and discreet slave” class of anointed Christians. These have been helped by Jehovah’s spirit to understand his will progressively. (Matthew 24:45-47; Proverbs 4:18) Thus, when direction comes from Jehovah’s organization, we can wisely submit to it,]
[11-15-09 WT- By word or action, may we never challenge the channel of communication that Jehovah is using today. (Num. 16:1-3) On the contrary, we should cherish our privilege to cooperate with the slave class.]
[2-15-09 WT- Since Jehovah God and Jesus Christ completely trust the faithful and discreet slave, should we not do the same?]
[4-15-13 WT- How do we demonstrate our support for the arrangements made by Jehovah’s organization? One important way is by always putting our confidence in the ones whom Jehovah and Jesus trusting]
[Psalm 146:3 Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.]
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Venerate– a feeling of awe, respect; reverence-deep respect for someone or something
Adoration- the act of paying honor, as to a divine being; worship.
Sacred duty– worthy of religious worship: very holy, highly valued and important: deserving great respect
Devotion– love, loyalty, or enthusiasm for a person, activity, or cause
Loyal– faithful to any leader, party, or cause, or to any person or thing conceived as deserving fidelity
Submit– to defer to another’s judgment, opinion, decision, etc.
Cherish– to hold or treat as dear; feel love for
Confidence– full trust; belief in the powers, trustworthiness, or reliability of a person or thing
Trust– reliance on the integrity, strength, ability, surety, etc., of a person or thing;
[Insight Vol 1 IDOL, IDOLATRY- An idol is an image, a representation of anything, or a symbol that is an object of passionate devotion, whether material or imagined. Generally speaking, idolatry is the veneration, love, worship, or adoration of an idol. It is usually practiced toward a real or supposed higher power, whether such power is believed to have animate existence (as a human, an animal, or an organization) or is inanimate (as a force or lifeless object of nature).]
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Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
Ditto to what Finkelstein said. I knew after a few replies that it would be pointless to reason with him but I figured I would continue to respond for the JW lurkers here that I am sure view this site.
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Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
quote - It cannot be a period of Babylonian domination because we cannot determine a precise year as a beginning of that Period. - end quote
First, Who do you mean when you say "we cannot determine", who is WE?
[Isaiah’s Prophecy 1 p. 253-254 par. 21 – He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.]
Without trying to evade answering directly, please answer the following:
Is the WTS there citing verse 11 and claiming that those 70 years "represent the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination"?
Is the WTS there stating that at the END of those 70 years that that domination comes to its end (will crumble)?
Did the WTS there point out that Babylon came to an END (fell/crumbled) in 539?
If that domination came to an end in 539 and that was the end of the 70 years, then what precise year did the 70 years begin?
I know you will not answer these questions precisely and I know your brain can't fathom that this one WTS excerpt actually shows the correct view of those 70 years (FOR Babylon/NATIONS to serve) and when they are (609-539). It agrees with history and totally contradicts the WTS's spin on their false view of when those 70 years are (607-537).
Let me ask you this though about the other end of this whole argument which is 1914. Do you believe that the 7th trumpet blew in 1914? (Rev 11:15)
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Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
quote - The fact is that the biblical evidence proves that 607 BCE is the only possible date for the Fall of Jerusalem - end quote
For 607 to be the date for the fall of Jerusalem then 629 has to be the date used for the fall of Assyria.
609 Haran fell
605 Nebuchadnezzar becomes king
587 18 years later destroys Jerusalem
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629 Haran fell
625 Nebuchadnezzar becomes king
607 18 years later destroys Jerusalem
So if you believe 607 is the year Jerusalem fell then you believe 629 is the year for the fall of Assyria, so do you understand that that means Babylon was ruling from 629-539, 90 years.
Jeremiah 25:11 states that the nations would only have to serve Babylon 70 years, that's why we can say that 609 is the correct date for the fall of Assyria which would mean Babylon ruled from 609-539, 70 years and that also means that the fall of Jerusalem was in 587.
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154
Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
quote -The date for Assyria's ending as a World Power is problematic but the accepted Date is 609 BCE and that is fine with me because it has absolutely nothing to do with the beginning of the 70 years. - end quote
Thank you for that answer...and you are just showing that you really have no idea what you are talking about, but by no means please don't stop, PLEASE see this whole thing out.
You say you are fine with saying Assyria ended being the 2nd world power in 609 (which is correct) because it "has absolutely nothing to do with the beginning of the 70 years".
Take note of this first:
[12-1-71 WT p. 715 - This prophecy begins to apply, therefore, after Darius the Mede and Cyrus the Persian brought about the downfall of Babylon in the autumn of the year 539 B.C.E. and the Medo-Persian Empire was established as the Fourth World Power of Bible history. This Empire, which grew to greater size than that of Babylon, eastward and westward and southward, continued its world domination from 539 to 331 B.C.E.]
Notice that the WTS states accurately that the Medo-Persian Empire was established as the 4th world power in 539 with the downfall of Babylon (3rd world power).And they go on to show that Medo-Persian Empire was the 4th world power until 331 and although not stated here it ended in 331 due to Greece overthrowing it and thereby becoming the 5th world power.
Likewise, Babylon defeated Assyria (2nd world power) in 609 thereby becoming the 3rd world power until 539 and as we just read Medo-Persian then became the 4th world power having defeated Babylon.
So if you know that Babylon defeated Assyria in 609 then why do you say that they (Babylon) did not become the 3rd world power until 607 and that they were only a world power for 68 years? Even the WTS states that Babylon's greatest domination period was 70 years long.
Anyway, I hope you are aware that Nabopolassar (Nebuchadnezzar's father) was king and with Nebuchadnezzar when they defeated Assyria in Haran in 609, and Nabopolassar died 4 years later in 605 and that is when Nebuchadnezzar became king and then the Bible account goes on to say that Nebuchadnezzar sacked Judah 18 years after becoming king.
605 -18 = 587... But all here know that the WTS likes to magically add 20 years to 587 to arrive at 607...but that also means that they add 20 years to the Babylon overthrow of Assyria in Haran 609 which would be 629.
629 - 539 = 90 years
So knowing that the WTS stated that Medo-Persian became the 4th world power starting at the point they overthrew Babylon until they were overthrown by Greece...do say that:
Babylon defeated Assyria in 629 and thereby the 3rd world power for 90 years until 539?
Or do you say:
Babylon defeated Assyria in 609 and thereby the 3rd world power for 70 years until 539?
Or do you still say that Babylon became the 3rd world power in 607 for 68 years until 539?
If so, do you say they defeated Assyria in 629 (like the WTS does) or 609?
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154
Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
quote - Yes, you must improve your comprehension skills and pay close attention to the Society's reply to your letter and to my posts mon this subject. - end quote
LOL!!! My letter? Labsto is the one that wrote the letter and started this thread. Maybe you should pay a little closer attention. :)
Anyway, you say Babylon was a world power for 68 years.
Okay, if Assyria was the 2nd world power and Babylon was the 3rd world power and you say that Babylon became a world power in 607, then PLEASE tell me what year did Assyria cease being the 2nd world power?
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154
Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
Quote - try to improve your comprehension skills which are lacking as shown also by your poor understanding of the Society's reply - End quote
LOL!!! Sure thing, I will try to improve. Tell me please though, where have I shown a poor understanding to the 'Society's' reply as it relates to the excerpts that I am citing from them?
The Society states that the 70 years at Jeremiah 25:11,12 represents Babylon's greatest domination period:
[Isaiah’s Prophecy 1 p. 253-254 par. 21 – Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—]
Jehovah said that when those 70 years have been fulfilled he would call Babylon to account:
[Jeremiah 25:11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’12“‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah,]
The Society shows that Jehovah called Babylon to account in 539:
[8-1-81 WT p. 27-28 - “The idol-worshiping Babylonians now were in line for God’s judgment to be executed upon them. That happened in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.”]
Based on that I am showing that the 70 years are from 609 to 539, so please with your far more superior comprehension skills than I, tell me what I am not understanding based on what you are reading above.
Also, PLEASE answer these two questions:
Was Babylon the 3rd world power for 90 years or 70 years?
Did the nations serve Babylon for 90 years or 70 years?
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154
Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters
by Lobsto ina month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.
two days ago, i received a response from them.
i think this is gonna be the first of many.
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johnamos
Quote - Jeremiah's prophecy herein is addressed to five surrounding nations of Judah and including the nation of Judah that they could escape Jehovah's judgement by submitting in servitude to the then reigning king, Nebuchadnezzer - End quote
If you think there were only FIVE, then read Jeremiah 25:17-29!
Quote - Jeremiah's texts of the seventy years are applicable to Judah alone - End quote
Not so!
[Jeremiah 25:11... and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years]
[Jeremiah 25:17 And I proceeded to take the cup out of the hand of Jehovah and to make all the nations drink to whom Jehovah had sent me]
Quote - There is simply no basis, in fact, to claim that the 70 years for Judah ended in 539 BCE or began in the fuzzy date of 609 BCE. - End quote
The basis is that the 70 year servitude for the nations (including Judah) was to be in subjection to Babylon.
Were the nations (including Judah) in subjection to Babylon when Assyria was still the 2nd world power?
No there were not, even Babylon itself would have been in subjection to Assyria.
Were the nations (including Judah) in subjection to Babylon when Babylon was the 3rd world power?
YES they were!
Were the nations (including Judah) in subjection to Babylon when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians? (Medo/Persia then became the 4th world power.)
No they were not!
You have read in the WTS excerpts that I cited that the 70 years 'represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination" and that that "domination ended for Babylon in 539 when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians". Therefore the servitude for the nations (including Judah) to be in subjection to Babylon had to be during the time of Babylon's greatest domination period as the 3rd world power which is the time period that the WTS says represents the 70 years, which is 609 - 539.
How is it that you say 609 is a fuzzy date? The WTS clearly state that the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination and that that domination ended for Babylon in 539. What is fuzzy about adding 70 years to 539 and arriving at the year 609?