Posts by johnamos

20

Was Paul A false Prophet?

by saorean in

i ask the question on the title because there a quite a number of statements the apostle paul made about the coming of jesus and resurrection of the holy ones that never fulfilled.

1 corinthians 15: 51, 52 (nwt) : .

i tell you a sacred secret: we will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.

johnamos

So I ask when they made such statements expressing strong hopes in their ascension to heaven, where they opinions or inspired words?

I would say that it is both, opinion and inspired. Don't be confused between what Jesus/angels/holy spirit directly taught them with being inspired of what to record in their writings of which now is the Bible books we have.

Along with what they were inspired to write of prophecy that was/is to be fulfilled, they were also inspired to write down their interactions, expectations, etc.. negative or not.

As I said, surely all first century Christians were under the impression that Jesus would return in their lifetime as all have been the past ~~2,000~~ 1,986 years later. So while Paul may have been divinely taught about a prophecy, or what have you, and was inspired to write it down, it does not mean that all he was inspired to write down was divinely taught.

I know I am doing a poor job of explaining what I am trying to say. But take for instance Daniel, he was divinely taught (shown/told) things and he said that he heard but did not understand. Likewise, he wrote when he felt frighten, or weak, etc. So he was inspired to write these kinds of details but it does not mean it is all divinely given information.

20

Was Paul A false Prophet?

by saorean in

i ask the question on the title because there a quite a number of statements the apostle paul made about the coming of jesus and resurrection of the holy ones that never fulfilled.

1 corinthians 15: 51, 52 (nwt) : .

i tell you a sacred secret: we will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.

johnamos

I ask the question on the title because there a quite a number of statements the Apostle Paul made about the coming of Jesus and resurrection of the holy ones that never fulfilled.

of course it has not fulfilled yet, because Jesus has not returned.

Evidently this "sacred secret" failed. They all died. And more than 2000 years ahead, here we are.

So on one hand you are claiming that something that Paul stated was not fulfilled but then on the other you are acknowledging that what Paul stated to be fulfilled is yet future.

So if your issue is not that it hasn't been fulfilled yet but rather that it had not been fulfilled in the time frame that you feel Paul had in mind...then what you have to keep in mind is that the 'sacred secret' that Paul was speaking about was about the resurrection of the holy ones occurring at the coming of Jesus at last trumpet.

The 'sacred secret' did not include knowledge of the timing of Jesus' coming. The mere fact that Paul spoke as if that was to occur in his time by the fact the he said 'we the living" is consistent with what was the mindset for ALL first century Christians and ALL since then down to our day (1,986 years later) and that is that no one knows the day and hour but are to keep in expectation/keep the watch, prove themselves ready, etc...has if Jesus' arrival is coming during your own lifetime.

20

Was Paul A false Prophet?

by saorean in

i ask the question on the title because there a quite a number of statements the apostle paul made about the coming of jesus and resurrection of the holy ones that never fulfilled.

1 corinthians 15: 51, 52 (nwt) : .

i tell you a sacred secret: we will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.

johnamos

It has not been fulfilled yet because it is not due to be until Jesus' future arrival.

[1 Thessalonians 4:15-17…the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Then we the living who are surviving will, ‘at the same time’ with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.]

[Matthew 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]

[1 Corinthians 15:51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep in death, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, 52 in the twinkling of an eye, 'at' the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.]

[Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ”]

[John 6:39 This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose none out of all those whom he has given me, but that I should resurrect them on the last day.]

[Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.]

[2 Peter 3:8 However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.]

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

johnamos

WOW that's the thing about posting on boards and not knowing who anyone really is. I get the feeling I am speaking to a 14 year boy.

How old are you scholar? Do you fully read my responses? I have answered you on what you asked and cited Scriptures to back up what I said. My point could not be any clearer and yet you are unable to comprehend...but I will try again, if for any reason, because I have insomnia.

You asked me:

If you truly believe that the nations served Babylon for 70 years then with the exception of Tyre can you document how that period of servitude applied to all the other nations listed amounting to at least 18 in number in Jer. 25:17-26.

My answer was:

From the point that Babylon became the 3rd power by defeating Assyria (609) to the time that Babylon was defeated itself by Medo-Persian (539), is when all the nations were subjected to Babylon. All nations served Babylon for the same amount of time, 70 years (609-539).That is how the period of servitude applied to all the nations.

With that answer and the Scriptures I cited it should be clear that ALL of the nations started serving Babylon from the point that Babylon became the 3rd world power, which was in 609 and they stopped serving Babylon at the point when Babylon came to it's end, which was in 539. Those are the 70 years that ALL the nations served Babylon. That is what the following Scriptures state:

Jeremiah 25:11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’+ 12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled,+ I will call to account* the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’+ declares Jehovah, ‘and I will make the land of the Chal·deʹans a desolate wasteland for all time.+

[Jeremiah 27:6 And now I have given all these lands into the hand of my servant King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon; even the wild beasts of the field I have given him to serve him. 7 ALL THE NATIONS WILL HAVE TO SERVE him and his son and his grandson until the time for his own land comes, when many nations and great kings will make him their slave.’8 ‘If any nation or kingdom refuses to serve King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon and refuses to put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, I will punish that nation with the sword, with famine, and with pestilence,’ declares Jehovah, ‘until I have finished them off by his hand.’9 Therefore, do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your magicians, and your sorcerers, who are saying to you: “You will not serve the king of Babylon.” 10 For they are prophesying lies to you, so that you will be taken far away from your land and I will disperse you and you will perish.11 ‘But the nation that brings its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serves him, I will allow to remain on its land,’ declares Jehovah, ‘to cultivate it and dwell in it.]

[Daniel 5:26 “This is the interpretation of the word: MEʹNE, God has numbered* the days of your kingdom and has finished* it.+ 27 “TEʹKEL, you have been weighed* in the balances and have been found deficient.+ 28 “PEʹRES, your kingdom has been divided* and given to the Medes and the Persians.”*+ 29 At that time Bel·shazʹzar commanded,* and they clothed Daniel with purple, with a necklace of gold about his neck; and they heralded* concerning him that he was to become the third ruler in the kingdom.+ 30 In that very night* Bel·shazʹzar the Chal·deʹan king was killed+ 31 * and Da·riʹus*+ the Mede himself received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old.]

[Jeremiah 29:10 This is what the LORD says: "When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my good promise to bring you back to this place. NIV]

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

johnamos

Oh really! All that you have done is nothing just mentioning Tyre and Babylon, what about the others?

What are you talking about?

I said:

From the point that Babylon became the 3rd power by defeating Assyria (609) to the time that Babylon was defeated itself by Medo-Persian (539), is when all the nations were subjected to Babylon. All nations served Babylon for the same amount of time, 70 years (609-539).That is how the period of servitude applied to all the nations.

And I cited the following Scriptures that show that:

Jeremiah 25:11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’+ 12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled,+ I will call to account* the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’+ declares Jehovah, ‘and I will make the land of the Chal·deʹans a desolate wasteland for all time.+

[Jeremiah 27:6 And now I have given all these lands into the hand of my servant King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon; even the wild beasts of the field I have given him to serve him. 7 ALL THE NATIONS WILL HAVE TO SERVE him and his son and his grandson until the time for his own land comes, when many nations and great kings will make him their slave.’8 ‘If any nation or kingdom refuses to serve King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon and refuses to put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, I will punish that nation with the sword, with famine, and with pestilence,’ declares Jehovah, ‘until I have finished them off by his hand.’9 Therefore, do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your magicians, and your sorcerers, who are saying to you: “You will not serve the king of Babylon.” 10 For they are prophesying lies to you, so that you will be taken far away from your land and I will disperse you and you will perish.11 ‘But the nation that brings its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serves him, I will allow to remain on its land,’ declares Jehovah, ‘to cultivate it and dwell in it.]

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

johnamos

If you truly believe that the nations served Babylon for 70 years then with the exception of Tyre can you document how that period of servitude applied to all the other nations listed amounting to at least 18 in number in Jer. 25:17-26.

YES I can and there is no reason to leave Tyre out since it is listed along with the other nations and the Scriptures read 'THESE NATIONS' and 'ALL THE NATIONS".

When Babylon defeated the 2nd world power Assyria in 609, Babylon became the 3rd world power, likewise when Medo-Persian defeated Babylon in 539, Medo-Persian became the 4th world power.*

* [12-1-71 WT p. 715 - This prophecy begins to apply, therefore, after Darius the Mede and Cyrus the Persian brought about the downfall of Babylon in the autumn of the year 539 B.C.E. and the Medo-Persian Empire was established as the Fourth World Power of Bible history. This Empire, which grew to greater size than that of Babylon, eastward and westward and southward, continued its world domination from 539 to 331 B.C.E.]

From the point that Babylon became the 3rd power by defeating Assyria (609) to the time that Babylon was defeated itself by Medo-Persian (539), is when all the nations were subjected to Babylon. All nations served Babylon for the same amount of time, 70 years (609-539).That is how the period of servitude applied to all the nations.

Jeremiah 25:11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’+ 12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled,+ I will call to account* the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’+ declares Jehovah, ‘and I will make the land of the Chal·deʹans a desolate wasteland for all time.+

[Jeremiah 27:6 And now I have given all these lands into the hand of my servant King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon; even the wild beasts of the field I have given him to serve him. 7 ALL THE NATIONS WILL HAVE TO SERVE him and his son and his grandson until the time for his own land comes, when many nations and great kings will make him their slave.’8 ‘If any nation or kingdom refuses to serve King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon and refuses to put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, I will punish that nation with the sword, with famine, and with pestilence,’ declares Jehovah, ‘until I have finished them off by his hand.’9 Therefore, do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your magicians, and your sorcerers, who are saying to you: “You will not serve the king of Babylon.” 10 For they are prophesying lies to you, so that you will be taken far away from your land and I will disperse you and you will perish.11 ‘But the nation that brings its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serves him, I will allow to remain on its land,’ declares Jehovah, ‘to cultivate it and dwell in it.]

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

johnamos

This is simply opinion not historical fact because such cannot be determined definitively so we have some event which is simply too fuzzy so unsuitable to serve as a time marker

You have no idea what you are talking about. The link that I put to the BM has the chronicle that shows the fall of Nineveh as 612 and then 609 was the fall of Haran that did away with the Assyrian empire.

That aside, I showed that the WTS says the fall of Haran was in 629 because they add 20 years to 587 to come to 607 so they have to keep adding the 20 years to everything so the 609 becomes 629.

So with that noted that means that if Babylon defeated Assyrian with that last battle in Haran in 629 then that means Babylon was the 3rd world power for 90 years. (629-539)

WHAT do you say about the FACT that verse 11 says that NATIONS WOULD ONLY HAVE TO SERVE BABYLON FOR 70 YEARS?

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

johnamos

That WT article cited by you does not make any mention of Jer.25;8-17

I said the 81 did not but I said the FOLLOWING does, meaning the Isaiah’s Prophecy book...and it indeed cites Jer.25: 8 through 17, 22 and 27, that means that verse 12 is being cited as well.

With that said, lets look at the exact Scriptures the WTS cited there and compare it with their commentary.

Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27

8 “Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘“Because you would not obey my words, 9 I am sending for all the families of the north,”+ declares Jehovah, “sending for King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar* of Babylon, my servant,+ and I will bring them against this land+ and against its inhabitants and against all these surrounding nations.+ I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of horror and something to whistle at and a perpetual ruin. 10 I will put an end to the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing from them,+ the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride,+ the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp. 11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’+ 12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled,+ I will call to account* the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’+ declares Jehovah, ‘and I will make the land of the Chal·deʹans a desolate wasteland for all time.+ 13 I will bring on that land all my words that I have spoken against it, all that is written in this book that Jeremiah has prophesied against all the nations. 14 For many nations and great kings+ will make slaves of them,+ and I will repay them according to their deeds and the work of their own hands.’”+ 15 For this is what Jehovah the God of Israel said to me: “Take this cup of the wine of wrath out of my hand, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. 16 And they will drink and stagger and act like madmen because of the sword that I am sending among them.”+ 17 So I took the cup out of the hand of Jehovah and made all the nations to whom Jehovah sent me drink:+

[Isaiah’s Prophecy 1 p. 253-254 par. 21 –

He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) ...

...the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—…

...at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.]

It is impossible to begin the 70 years from 609 BCE as a historical beginning because nothing of any historical or biblical significance occurred in that year.

YES something historical did happen in 609. That is when Babylon defeated Assyria making Babylon the 3rd world power, until is came to its end in 539. (70 years)

Because the WTS adds 20 years they say Babylon defeated Assyria in 629,* but to except that nonsense you would have to understand that that would mean that Babylon was the 3rd world power for 90 years (629-539) instead of 70 years (609-539)...so how do you explain the fact that verse 11 says that nations would only have to serve for 70 years and then verse 12 makes clear that when THOSE 70 years had been fulfilled that Babylon would be destroyed/called to account, which happen in 539.

* [Insight Vol 1 The fall of the empire - According to the same chronicle, in the 14th year of Nabopolassar (632 B.C.E.), Ashur-uballit II attempted to continue Assyrian rule from Haran as his capital city. This chronicle states, under the 17th year of Nabopolassar (629 B.C.E.): “In the month Duʼuzu, Ashur-uballit, king of Assyria, (and) a large [army of] E[gy]pt [who had come to his aid] crossed the river (Euphrates) and [marched on] to conquer Harran.” (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, p. 305; brackets and parentheses theirs.) Actually, Ashur-uballit was trying to reconquer it after having been driven out. This record is in harmony with the account relative to the activity of Pharaoh Nechoh recorded at 2 Kings 23:29, which activity resulted in the death of King Josiah of Judah (c. 629 B.C.E.). This text states that “Pharaoh Nechoh the king of Egypt came up to the king of Assyria by the river Euphrates”—evidently to help him. “The king of Assyria” to whom Nechoh came may well have been Ashur-uballit II. Their campaign against Haran did not succeed. The Assyrian Empire had ended.]

https://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=320101&partId=1&searchText=21901&page=1

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

johnamos

You will notice that the WT did not cite Jer. 25:12 in connection with this statement.

In that 81 WT they did not cite 25:12 but in the following they do by citing 25:8-17, which obviously includes verse 12. They also agree with historians/secular chronology as to what and when the 70 years are.

[Isaiah’s Prophecy 1 p. 253-254 par. 21 – He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.]

[Jeremiah 25:’12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah,

[10-1-11 WT - Instead of saying 70 years “at Babylon,” many translations read “for Babylon.” (NIV) Some historians therefore claim that this 70-year period applies to the Babylonian Empire. According to secular chronology, the Babylonians dominated the land of ancient Judah and Jerusalem for some 70 years, from about 609 B.C.E. until 539 B.C.E. when the capital city of Babylon was captured.]

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

johnamos

Nope the calling into account for Babylon only commenced after the 70 years had finished in 537 and not 539 BCE as shown by recent scholarship.

[Jeremiah 25:’12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah,]

[8-1-81 WT p. 27-28 - “The idol-worshiping Babylonians now were in line for God’s judgment to be executed upon them. That happened in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.”]