YK
Thanks for that answer. I was aware of that scripture. But what about the point that the kings had not even been born yet and yet were recorded in Genesis? Seems to me that Chronicles was written first and Genesis copied it?
UO
uncle_onion
JoinedPosts by uncle_onion
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Any Xtians want to answer this for me please?
by uncle_onion ini have been reading a bit of thomas paine.
paine lived in the 17th century and was an agnostic.
i have many points that i want to share with you and i thought that this would be a good start.
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Any Xtians want to answer this for me please?
by uncle_onion ini have been reading a bit of thomas paine.
paine lived in the 17th century and was an agnostic.
i have many points that i want to share with you and i thought that this would be a good start.
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uncle_onion
I have been reading a bit of “Thomas Paine”. Paine lived in the 17th century and was an agnostic. I have many points that I want to share with you and I thought that this would be a good start. Here is the quote followed by the verses from the Bible which he is talking about:
“I proceed now to state another point of historical and chronological evidence, and to show therefrom, as in the preceding case, that Moses is not the author of the book of Genesis.
In the 36th chapter of Genesis there is given a genealogy of the sons and descendants of Esau, who are called Edomites, and also a list, by name, of the kings of Edom, in enumerating of which, it is said, (verse 31), And these are the kings that reigned in Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel.
Now, were any dateless writings to be found in which, speaking of any past events, the writer should say, These things happened before there was any Congress in America, or before there was any Convention in France, it would be evidence that such writing could not have been written before, and could only be written after there was a Congress in America, or a Convention in France, as the case might be; and, consequently, that it could not be written by any person who died before there was a Congress in the one country or a Convention in the other.
Nothing is more frequent, as well in history as in conversation, than to refer to a fact in the room of a date; it is most natural so to do, first, because a fact fixes itself in the memory better than a date; secondly, because the fact includes the date, and serves to excite two ideas at once; and this manner of speaking by circumstances implies as positively that the fact alluded to is past as if it were so expressed. When a person speaking upon any matter, says, it was before I was married, or before my son was born, or before I went to America, or before I went to France, it is absolutely understood, and intended to be understood, that he had been married, that he has had a son, that he has been in America, or been in France. Language does not admit of using this mode of expression in any other sense; and whenever such an expression is found anywhere, it can only be understood in the sense in which it only could have been used.
The passage, therefore, that I have quoted- "that these are the kings that reigned in Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel"- could only have been written after the first king began to reign over them; and, consequently, that the book of Genesis, so far from having been written by Moses, could not have been written till the time of Saul at least. This is the positive sense of the passage; but the expression, any king, implies more kings than one, at least it implies two, and this will carry it to the time of David; and if taken in a general sense, it carries it through all the time of the Jewish monarchy.
Had we met with this verse in any part of the Bible that professed to have been written after kings began to reign in Israel, it would have been impossible not to have seen the application of it. It happens then that this is the case; the two books of Chronicles, which gave a history of all the kings, of Israel, are professedly, as well as in fact, written after the Jewish monarchy began; and this verse that I have quoted, and all the remaining verses of the 36th chapter of Genesis, are word for word in the first chapter of Chronicles, beginning at the 43d verse
It was with consistency that the writer of the Chronicles could say, as he has said, 1st Chron., chap. i., ver. 43, These are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom, before any king reigned over the children of Israel, because he was going to give, and has given, a list of the kings that had reigned in Israel; but as it is impossible that the same expression could have been used before that period, it is as certain as anything that can be proved from historical language that this part of Genesis is taken from Chronicles and that Genesis is not so old as Chronicles, and probably not so old as the book of Homer, or as Aesop's Fables, admitting Homer to have been, as the tables of Chronology state, contemporary with David or Solomon, and Aesop to have lived about the end of the Jewish monarchy.” END OF QUOTESo here are the verses in question. What do you think?
Uncle_onion*** Rbi8 Genesis 36:31-43 ***
31 Now these are the kings who reigned in the land of E'dom before any king reigned over the sons of Israel. 32 And Be'la son of Be'or proceeded to reign in E'dom, and the name of his city was Din'ha·bah. 33 When Be'la died, Jo'bab son of Ze'rah from Boz'rah began to reign instead of him. 34 When Jo'bab died, Hu'sham from the land of the Te'man·ites began to reign instead of him. 35 When Hu'sham died, Ha'dad son of Be'dad, who defeated the Mid'i·an·ites in the field of Mo'ab, began to reign instead of him, and the name of his city was A'vith. 36 When Ha'dad died, Sam'lah from Mas·re'kah began to reign instead of him. 37 When Sam'lah died, Sha'ul from Re·ho'both by the River began to reign instead of him. 38 When Sha'ul died, Ba'al-ha'nan son of Ach'bor began to reign instead of him. 39 When Ba'al-ha'nan son of Ach'bor died, Ha'dar began to reign instead of him; and the name of his city was Pa'u, and the name of his wife was Me·het'a·bel the daughter of Ma'tred the daughter of Me'za·hab.
40 So these are the names of the sheiks of E'sau according to their families, according to their places, by their names: Sheik Tim'na, sheik Al'vah, sheik Je'theth, 41 sheik O·hol·i·ba'mah, sheik E'lah, sheik Pi'non, 42 sheik Ke'naz, sheik Te'man, sheik Mib'zar, 43 sheik Mag'di·el, sheik I'ram. These are the sheiks of E'dom according to their dwellings in the land of their possession. This is E'sau the father of E'dom.*** Rbi8 1 Chronicles 1:43-54 ***
And these are the kings that reigned in the land of E'dom before any king reigned over the sons of Israel: Be'la the son of Be'or, the name of whose city was Din'ha·bah. 44 Eventually Be'la died, and Jo'bab the son of Ze'rah from Boz'rah began to reign in place of him. 45 Eventually Jo'bab died, and Hu'sham from the land of the Te'man·ites began to reign in place of him. 46 Eventually Hu'sham died, and Ha'dad the son of Be'dad, who defeated Mid'i·an in the field of Mo'ab, began to reign in place of him. And the name of his city was A'vith. 47 Eventually Ha'dad died, and Sam'lah from Mas·re'kah began to reign in place of him. 48 Eventually Sam'lah died, and Sha'ul from Re·ho'both by the River began to reign in place of him. 49 Eventually Sha'ul died, and Ba'al-ha'nan the son of Ach'bor began to reign in place of him. 50 Eventually Ba'al-ha'nan died, and Ha'dad began to reign in place of him; and the name of his city was Pa'u, and the name of his wife was Me·het'a·bel, the daughter of Ma'tred, the daughter of Me'za·hab. 51 Eventually Ha'dad died.
And the sheiks of E'dom came to be sheik Tim'na, sheik Al'vah, sheik Je'theth, 52 sheik O·hol·i·ba'mah, sheik E'lah, sheik Pi'non, 53 sheik Ke'naz, sheik Te'man, sheik Mib'zar, 54 sheik Mag'di·el, sheik I'ram. These were the sheiks of E'dom. -
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Alleged Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus
by JanH inmost exjws are familiar with the claims that the gospel accounts about jesus "fulfills" around 300 prophecies in the old testament.
this claim is taken verbatim from christian fundamentalists.
checking out these so-called prophecies will reveal that they do not stand up to scrutiny.
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uncle_onion
Ros
I dont know what I am leaning towards, hopefully the truth. I believe that there is a God (I think!) but i dont know if I can accept the Bible as his word.
UO
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Alleged Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus
by JanH inmost exjws are familiar with the claims that the gospel accounts about jesus "fulfills" around 300 prophecies in the old testament.
this claim is taken verbatim from christian fundamentalists.
checking out these so-called prophecies will reveal that they do not stand up to scrutiny.
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uncle_onion
This is what I am researching at the moment.Can anyone recomend any books that deal with the "prophecies" and whether they fulfilled or not?
UO
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new Britian elder letters: molestation
by Dogpatch insomething i just read, proofs are at:.
http://thetruthhurts.freeservers.com/.
dear brothers:.
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uncle_onion
outnfree
I have the scans on my Pc. E me and I will send them to you.
UO
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new Britian elder letters: molestation
by Dogpatch insomething i just read, proofs are at:.
http://thetruthhurts.freeservers.com/.
dear brothers:.
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uncle_onion
This is geuine. I know the brother personally who acquired the letter.
UO
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Latest letter to the Elders from Bethel re Peadoph
by uncle_onion ini have recieved this today.
it is from a genuine source.
an elder who is not happy has given the letter to my friend.
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uncle_onion
I tried to correct the typos but I think I had all my chances trying to post the scan! Sorry!
UO
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Latest letter to the Elders from Bethel re Peadoph
by uncle_onion ini have recieved this today.
it is from a genuine source.
an elder who is not happy has given the letter to my friend.
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uncle_onion
I have recieved this today. It is from a Genuine source. An Elder who is NOT HAPPY has given the letter to my friend. My friend has seen the original and hgas copies of the letter thatr has been sent to all Elders in the UK.I have a scanned copy but have had a lot of trouble uploading it to my website (hence the stupid comment from Fred). I can send anyone a copy if they e me. I would appreciate it if some one can upload it to their site and post the scan on the forum.
UO
Certified A True Copy … Garth Rigby & Co. Solicitors Ashton-in-MakerfieldWATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF BRITAIN
THE RIDGEWAY LONDON NW7 1RN
TELEPHONE 020 8906 2211
[XX] June 1, 2001
ALL BODIES OF ELDERS
Dear Brothers:
In our letter To All Bodies of Elders dated [XX] January 1, 2001, we gave instructions relating to disfellowshipping and disassociation records, and files relating to child molestation. We thank you for all your hard work in complying with this necessary and important direction so that the government’s deadlines as incorporated in the Data Protection Act 1998 can be met.
Part of the direction given concerned creating a list entitled "Child Protection-Psalm 127:3." In connection with this List we have had a number of enquiries as to who should appear on it. Also, as you will appreciate, Caesar’s law does not stand still and this at times necessitates adjustments. We are pleased to provide clarification as to the use of the List and how records can be kept to enable our children to be properly protected in the congregation. - Isaiah 32:1, 2.
Those who have confessed to child molestation, or who have been found guilty of child molestation by the congregation on the basis of two or more credible witnesses, should appear on the Child Protection List. (For a definition of child molestation see paragraph 3 of our letter To All Bodies of Elders dated April 15, 1997.) Also, those who have been convicted by a court of crimes that constitute child abuse should be included on the List. If necessary, additional information may be kept in a sealed envelope in the congregation’s confidential file as described below. If such an individual moves to another congregation, the procedure found in paragraph 3 on page 2 of the April 15, 1997, letter should be followed.
There is one exception to the above direction: The elders may have written to the branch office and given full details about a former child abuser who is currently serving as an elder or ministerial servant. In such a case, if the branch office has decided that he can be appointed or continue serving in a position of trust because the sin occurred many years ago and because he has lived an exemplary life since then, his name should not appear on the List, nor is it necessary to pass on information about the brother’s past sin if he moves to another congregation unless contrary instructions have been given by the branch. If therefore, such an appointed man moves to another congregation a letter confirming the move should be sent, addressed to the Society’s Legal Department.
There are, however, many other situations that are connected with the abuse of a child. For example, there may be just one eyewitness, and the brother denies the allegation. (Deuteronomy 19:15; John 8:17) Or, he may be under active investigation by the secular authorities for alleged child abuse though the matter has not yet been established. Then again, a young child might be abused by someone who himself is a minor, perhaps in his pre- or early-
ALL BODIES OF ELDERS
June 1, 2001
Page 2
teens. In these and similar cases no entry will be made on the Child Protection List. Rather, information should be kept in a sealed envelope in the congregation’s confidential file as described below. When such individuals move, the Congregation Service Committee should write a letter addressed to the Society’s Legal Department seeking advice as to whether to communicate the details to the new congregation.
Keeping information relating to child abuse in a sealed envelope in the congrega- -tion’s confidential file: Only a brief note should be kept. This would show the name of the molester or alleged molester. If known, the following information should also be recorded: The name(s) of the victim(s) or alleged victim(s), the relationship of the offender to the victim(s), and how the matter was brought to the attention of the elders. The date the matter came to light, and the names of all the elders who were involved in some way or another would be noted. Facts such as when the alleged offence(s) took place, the period of time involved, and the ages of the alleged molester and victim(s) at the time of the incidents can be recorded. Make a simple statement of whether the allegation(s) amounted to uncleanness, loose conduct, or porneia as defined in Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock, pages 92-4. Do not record details other than those mentioned in this paragraph. Alternatively, if a written allegation is made by the victim, then this should be kept in the confidential file and, depending on the contents of the letter, there may be no need for the elders to write anything further. The only information that should appear on the outside of the envelope is the person’s name, the date the matter came to light, and the names of the elders involved.
Elders do their utmost to fulfil the serious responsibility of protecting children from harm. The cleanness of Jehovah’s organization needs to be preserved while, at the same time, we conform to Caesar’s laws respecting the handling of sensitive information. As well as providing guidance for your existing records, the instructions in this letter will also apply to situations that arise in the future and that are connected with child molestation.
We send you our warm Christian greetings.
Your brothers,
Watch Tower B. & T. Society of Britain
[Official stamp appears here.]
PS to Presiding overseer: As soon as possible arrange to have this letter read out to the body of elders. Following this the Congregation Service Committee should meet to review the Child Protection List to make sure it complies with the direction found in this letter. If it is found necessary to remove a person’s name from the Child Protection List rather than attempting to obliterate the name, please make a new List, destroying the old one.
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help with friend from Russia.
by uncle_onion ini have been e mailing a ministerial servant in russia.
he came across my website and he had a lot of questions.
we have spoken a few times on the phone and i have invited him to the uk so that we can meet.
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uncle_onion
no probs
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help with friend from Russia.
by uncle_onion ini have been e mailing a ministerial servant in russia.
he came across my website and he had a lot of questions.
we have spoken a few times on the phone and i have invited him to the uk so that we can meet.
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uncle_onion
I have been e mailing a Ministerial servant in Russia. He came across my website and he had a lot of questions. We have spoken a few times on the phone and I have invited him to the Uk so that we can meet. He needs a break (he lives with his wife, mother in law and sister in law.... all reg pioneers!)He has stepped down from being a MS.
Does anyone know of any charities that would be interested in sponsoring him for his trip to the UK.He speaks fairly good english. I can send him some money but can not finance the whole trip?
UO