Posts by fizzywiglet

447

Problems with the "Bogus AWAA Fan Page"..

by OUTLAW in

good afternoon jwn... .

i`ve spent the morning and part of my afternoon... getting to the bottom of... why names were added to the awaa fan page... it`s a dangerous thing to happen in our world... faders can be outed,we can lose,family,friends... the results can be an absolute disaster... .

aawa "did not" create the facebook awaa fan page.

fizzywiglet

Seconded, Malvinas and Dismissing Servant! (Yay, one of my posts opened up so I get one more in before my post limit is up, haha). I have met Juan personally. He's a good guy. I consider him a friend, along with one other person on the AAWA board. I think he's trying to be honest here, and he's a better calibre of person than what he's been handed to deal with.

I want to re-iterate this part of Juan's statement, from all the way back on page 2. Cedars is saying there is absolutely no evidence that any of the force-added people are still at risk because the group has been made secret again (after being made open):

* * *

"Among those who "joined" were several names that I did not recognize at all. But some I did and knew that they would not be expected to join a group like ours. There were others who were very evangelical and also some who I would consider to be Watchtower apologists who showed up on the list. Many others seemed to have no connection to JW activism or discussion whatsoever. I wondered why all of those types of persons would be joining our group.

Then I noticed as I scanned through the names that one person in particular seemed to be referring the majority of these unknowns. At that point I brought my concerns to the attention of the other advisors and the officers of AAWA. Their first reaction was that this was not necessarily a bad thing. After all, we welcomed support from every source and our doors were open to all. That is how I also felt some 12 hours before - but that morning I was literally panicked by the problem we were facing.

At that point Bo had to make a decision about what to do with our Facebook page and we all agreed to let him just go ahead and make it "open to all."

* * *

So: There you go. Absolutely no dispute; straight from the horse's mouth. People were force-added who were Watchtower apologists, moles, or not even ex-JW activists at all. Then they inexplicably OPENED UP THE GROUP for an indeterminate period (so yay! Anybody could join, open season for even more moles and apologists and ex-JW elders!) before making it secret again.

Those people are still in the group, with access to 1,300 names, at least 1,000 of which did not choose or consent to be there. AAWA hasn't done the single, easy thing that would protect those force-added (as well as the polite, ethical thing, because they want to keep their group count up. They know if they start over, without padding their numbers, it'll be nowhere near the "viral phenomenon" they were claiming).

When Cedars says there is no risk, he is lying. Pure and simple. And what's worse, he knows it.

447

Problems with the "Bogus AWAA Fan Page"..

by OUTLAW in

good afternoon jwn... .

i`ve spent the morning and part of my afternoon... getting to the bottom of... why names were added to the awaa fan page... it`s a dangerous thing to happen in our world... faders can be outed,we can lose,family,friends... the results can be an absolute disaster... .

aawa "did not" create the facebook awaa fan page.

fizzywiglet

Whether you`ve been here or not under another name,your still on my thread..

Telling me I`m barging in on my own thread,is friggin stupid..

No, I didn't say that. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth. I'm saying you barged into the issue and spoke on behalf of AAWA without having a clue what you were talking about (which has been clearly established).

Juan Viejo openly said there was AWAA members who made referels..

AWAA admits to screwing up,so thats no longer in Question..

There was a Big concern about a non AWAA member who outed people.

Thats what I`m addressing a,non AWAA member..We already know AWAA members screwed up..

They admited it..

Except, they really don't admit the full extent to which they screwed up. They downplayed their own members' involvement (it was "only" 50 people that AAWA force-added, which is both false and irrelevant).

People are asking WHO did the force-adding (they're not specifying AAWA or non-AAWA).

Anyway, again, all moot "admitting" that they screwed up if they're not willing to correct it. It's not enough to give the name of the outer or make a FB post saying "you can leave if you want to". People in that group are still at risk of outing. Everybody in that group needs to be notified of the situation and they need to start over and do it through the proper channels.

* * *

Edited to add, since my post limit is up for the day and Cedars is playing dumb:

I already DID address your question, Cedars. Also, you were not "first". I and many others have been making points 1, 2, and 3 for several days now, and you have ignored us and flat-out refused to address them.

As for accusations of "venom" and "hatred"...YAWN. Please. I wouldn't waste either on you. I'm not screaming "down with AAWA". I'm not in agreement with all your tenets, would never feel comfortable doing any volunteer or human-rights work on behalf of someone with your personality, and my personal opinion is the name is counterintuitive...but I really don't give a crap whether the group exists or not. You absolutely have a First-Amendment right to exist and spread your message.

The extent to which I care about your group is that I care about you rectifying the extremely high potential for outing and actual outing that you have already created and continue to protect/defend. The end. So cut the persecution complex; it's unflattering.

447

Problems with the "Bogus AWAA Fan Page"..

by OUTLAW in

good afternoon jwn... .

i`ve spent the morning and part of my afternoon... getting to the bottom of... why names were added to the awaa fan page... it`s a dangerous thing to happen in our world... faders can be outed,we can lose,family,friends... the results can be an absolute disaster... .

aawa "did not" create the facebook awaa fan page.

fizzywiglet

Cedars,

Address the rest of point 1 and the rest of points 2 and 3, please.

447

Problems with the "Bogus AWAA Fan Page"..

by OUTLAW in

good afternoon jwn... .

i`ve spent the morning and part of my afternoon... getting to the bottom of... why names were added to the awaa fan page... it`s a dangerous thing to happen in our world... faders can be outed,we can lose,family,friends... the results can be an absolute disaster... .

aawa "did not" create the facebook awaa fan page.

fizzywiglet

Cedars,

1) Well, it happened to Rebel8. Soooo I'm gonna say yeah, clearly it could happen. Not to mention, if you read what I posted, I've already said two or three times now that I had non-ex-JW Facebook friends who were not added to the group check my timeline before I left the group to see if the name showed up. They said YES. The name itself showed up ("Fizzywiglet has joined such-and-such group").

2) Even if it couldn't/shouldn't show up, it's unethical to force-add people. Your coordinator DID force-add people, she force-added a LOT of people, and it's become clear over the past several days that a huge chunk of those people had no idea they were force-added, were not notified by Facebook or did not see the notification, and are still members. Now that you are aware they were added without permission, you don't get to presume that they want to be a member unless they figure it out.

3) Since someone force-added 1,000 people, and now you're trying to say they could have been referred from other ex-JW FB groups, who's to say they didn't force-add people masquerading as ex-JWs, who they believed to be ex-JWs? We already know there are JWs who do that, start a mole FB account, join ex-JW FB boards, and collect apostate names, and then publish them on sites like "Apostate Watchdog". Now they're very possibly inside your "secret" group, and they can see names of 1,000 people who did not necessarily consent to having their name affiliated with that group. If an "out" ex-JW makes an informed decision to put their name on your group, secret or not, that is one thing. But it is not your place to decide that for them.

447

Problems with the "Bogus AWAA Fan Page"..

by OUTLAW in

good afternoon jwn... .

i`ve spent the morning and part of my afternoon... getting to the bottom of... why names were added to the awaa fan page... it`s a dangerous thing to happen in our world... faders can be outed,we can lose,family,friends... the results can be an absolute disaster... .

aawa "did not" create the facebook awaa fan page.

fizzywiglet

I'm aware that many of you are in full AAWA-bashing mode at the moment, but if any of you have a mind to be helpful I have a quick question.

I am trying to get to the bottom of the concerns being currently voiced about our facebook group, without being fully versed or experienced in facebook myself.

It has been brought to my attention that membership of our facebook group does not show up on the newsfeed of our members. Therefore, if anyone is a member of our group, even against their will, there is no way for a non-member (i.e. a Witness friend) to see that they are.

Of course, facebook pages are different - these show up on your facebook newsfeed, but nobody was force-added to AAWA's facebook page. In fact, you can't be "added" to it at all, you can only "like" it - and it is impossible to force someone to "like" something without their knowledge.

So my question is, if there are any calm heads prevailing on this thread who actually know how facebook works - can you prove that you can be a member of our group, mistakenly or otherwise, and for this to be visible to non-member friends?

For those who want to investigate in response to my question, our facebook group is called... "Association of Anti-Watchtower Activists (AAWA)"

I await your response.

Cedars

Ignoring the arrogant little jabs about people being "hot-headed" and "in bashing mode", it has been "brought to your attention" (multiple times) that the bolded statement above is incorrect.

As Jgnat posted just before you, there is a Facebook "page" which only has 257 "likes" which people cannot be auto-added to.

There is also the "secret group" (which Juan Viejo said they decided to make open, thereby increasing the likelihood of outing, and now you appear to have made secret again) here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/jwactivists/

This is the group I was force-added to. This is the group where your coordinator admitted that AAWA had force-added 1,000 people.

This is the group that outed Rebel8 and others. The title of this group showed up on MY timeline when I was force-added (I had non-ex-JW friends check and confirm it for me before leaving the group).

When I click on the link above, it tells me "Secret Group: You are unable to see the contents of this group because you are not a member." But I can still see the title of the group and this blurb about it:

" The Association of Anti-Watchtower Activists (AAWA) is an organization dedicated to raising awareness of the damaging in fluence of the Watch Tower Society through respectful and well-informed activism. AAWA is also committed to offering help and support to those who are mentally and emotionally afflicted by the Society’s teachings and practices in whatever ways it can.

AAWA's Mission Statement:

http://jwactivists.org/who-are-we/"

That is more than enough to damage a fader. Not to mention, nobody should be force-added to a page without their consent, whether they're an open apostate or not. It still doesn't mean that they agree with your group's mission or want to be a part of it. It doesn't mean that they should be counted as one of your members when a huge chunk of them still have no idea they were even added.

Anyway, you're still deflecting. You're ignoring the overwhelming point that AAWA force-added people without their consent, and that not only must stop immediately and in the future, but must be retroactively undone as far as possible. You continue to refuse to respond to the solution most people seem to agree on: shut down the page and start over. The right way. Inviting people instead of force-adding them and assuming they want to stay unless they leave.

As far as "language", do you have a problem with Outlaw saying s***? Or are you only nitpicking on people who hold you responsible for AAWA's actions?

447

Problems with the "Bogus AWAA Fan Page"..

by OUTLAW in

good afternoon jwn... .

i`ve spent the morning and part of my afternoon... getting to the bottom of... why names were added to the awaa fan page... it`s a dangerous thing to happen in our world... faders can be outed,we can lose,family,friends... the results can be an absolute disaster... .

aawa "did not" create the facebook awaa fan page.

fizzywiglet

As I already said, Outlaw, I used to be here before under another name. For several years. And before I signed up, I lurked for a couple more years. Since I was 18. For over 10 years, myself. I don't post here really anymore, but this upset me enough to post about, because it's WRONG and people I know were affected - I'm a loyal friend and I'm both pissed off on their behalf as well as being upset that any group would be so rude and presumptuous as to assume I was willing to be a member, presume I agreed with their tenets, and force-add me. And, say, Dagney has been around on these boards since waaaay back when when it was JWD (also under a previous name, I think), so gee, maybe she should pull rank on you if you wanna play that game (except she's far classier than that, so she would never stoop to derailing). And so what? It's completely irrelevant how long I have been here...nice though, trying to deflect and undermine credibility when you get called out.

And yep, I'm on your thread, correcting your OP, which is simply not true.

As you say, you're not part of AAWA, but that didn't stop you from speaking on their behalf in bold, 20-point font. Whether you meant to or not, you've perpetuated a untrue story and you haven't apologized for or retracted it. That's the long and short of it, no amount of deflecting will change that.

As for "ooh, without this thread, the true story would never have come out"...FALSE (and hey, way to spin it into a little self-glorification). It's just been a rehash of the discussion that has been going on for days on the "AAWA is here" thread. Several of us (as Black Sheep pointed out) brought this stuff to light and proposed solutions days ago. They just kept getting buried under false narratives about "bogus identity theft" groups.

You're still perpetuating a false narrative even in the above post, when you say "Now can anyone find out which non-AAWA member outed all those people?".

Again:

It was an AAWA member. I know her name. Dagney knows her name. Several other people here also already know her name. The AAWA corporate officers know her name full well. She admitted that AAWA force-added around 1,000 people. She did this before 4/7/13, when there was allegedly some additional AAWA group member (who was not in a volunteer/coordinator/representative position, but an AAWA group member nonetheless) who entered the scene. AAWA advocated the force-add approach. They justified the force-add approach. AAWA did not take into account the proper settings to prevent the force-add approach. Their representative touted the force-add approach as the only logical way to get members because it was just toooooo muuuuuuch wooooooork going through proper channels. Their board members stayed silent when she said this. They ignored the problem for days, hoping it would get buried. The majority of the damage was done by an AAWA coordinator. Everything took place on AAWA's official page, even if there was a non-representative who got overenthusiastic on 4/7. AAWA is 100% responsible for this.

447

Problems with the "Bogus AWAA Fan Page"..

by OUTLAW in

good afternoon jwn... .

i`ve spent the morning and part of my afternoon... getting to the bottom of... why names were added to the awaa fan page... it`s a dangerous thing to happen in our world... faders can be outed,we can lose,family,friends... the results can be an absolute disaster... .

aawa "did not" create the facebook awaa fan page.

fizzywiglet

On the contrary, Outlaw. Along with several others, I'm putting forward facts and backing them up, and proposing solutions that will limit the damage and put an end to the compromise of privacy. People keep proposing the same solution over and over, the only possible solution to "make it right", and AAWA has so far tap-danced around it and keeps repeating "We already apologized; that's all we can do". Which is simply not the case.

And the "shameless spin doctoring" I'm referring to was done by Cedars, who perpetuated the story that you initially posted in the hopes that it would all just go away, until Juan Viejo was good enough to clarify - I suspect he did so regardless of how many brownie points it won him behind-the-scenes on the AAWA board.

I haven't made any false accusations. I've said exactly what I saw, and when, and where.

You're right; you're not part of AAWA. Didn't stop you from barging in and trumpeting in bold, 20-point font that there was a bogus page that committed identity theft and was responsible for the outings, and AAWA/its members were in no way responsible. Turns out that is not accurate, not at all. But it still stands. It's the first thing people see on this thread. And as you can see (by, say, HeadIsSpinning's comment on the previous page), it's a misconception still stuck in many people's heads, people who don't want to bother wading through 5 pages of posts to get to the truth. So tell me then, in contrast, what have YOU done to make this situation better, exactly?

447

Problems with the "Bogus AWAA Fan Page"..

by OUTLAW in

good afternoon jwn... .

i`ve spent the morning and part of my afternoon... getting to the bottom of... why names were added to the awaa fan page... it`s a dangerous thing to happen in our world... faders can be outed,we can lose,family,friends... the results can be an absolute disaster... .

aawa "did not" create the facebook awaa fan page.

fizzywiglet

HeadIsSpinning said: The issue with people being OUTED has nothing to do with the main AAWA group. That has been explained ad nauseum.

The ONLY issue with the main AAWA group is that some people were INVITED without their knowledge. The ONLY issue that causes is a minor inconvenience because that group is set to SECRET.

It was the RIP-OFF group that is responsible for adding people to an OPEN page and thereby revealing their identities.

What is unclear about that?

Nope, read again. The whole thread. Turns out that's a shameless little bit of spin-doctoring at best, which Juan Viejo (a board member) actually went to great lengths to explain and correct, while Cedars (the president) sat back and perpetuated Outlaw's initial sensationalistic (and inaccurate) post. Juan Viejo, at least you're being more forthcoming and seem to have more than a modicum of sense. As a board member, you might want to put forth a motion about getting some kind of business insurance...you're sure gonna need it if AAWA keeps compromising people's privacy.

As Juan stated and Mind Blown hilighted above, people were only force-added to the official AAWA page. The discrepancy in dispute seems to be how many were referred by an AAWA representative (he says "only" 50, as though that wouldn't be a big deal on its own, which it is) and how many were referred by an overenthusiastic AAWA group member who was not an AAWA representative (he says hundreds more, but only on 4/7...even though the AAWA coordinator herself admitted prior to that that AAWA had force-added around 1,000 people. Also, it shouldn't matter if an overenthusiastic group member did it...they shouldn't be able to wield that kind of power. Facebook has a setting where group admins can choose to vet/approve every person who joins before they are added (I know that because my own human rights group FB page uses that option). They didn't have to allow just any random member the power to auto-refer.)

So was this done by a member of AAWA or not?

Yes. In fact, she was confronted by several angry people on the group page and was really defensive about it and implied that AAWA had force-added closer to 1,000 people...she justified it as being "too much work" to invite everybody properly via PM. At that point, Rebel8 and others had already complained about being added/outed. So yes, AAWA's representative was very openly sanctioning the force-add approach.

That was before 4/7, when Juan Viejo claims the "main culprit" from this supposed "ripoff page" allegedly got enthusiastic and force-added what they're saying is the majority of the people. At the time the AAWA coordinator was confronted, they already had 1300+ members on their page, which I know because Bo Juel Jensen was excitedly posting, "Hey, we have over 1300 members!!!"...they currently say they have around 1325, so yeah, the dates and numbers don't match up; they're trying to cover their asses with this "stolen identity" story. I think Juan is trying to be forthcoming and transparent, unlike certain other board members, and does admit he doesn't know a ton about social media, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he is misinformed on this point rather than intentionally misrepresenting.

Dagney was force-added to the official page too and saw the confrontation (I believe she may have participated, actually, though if I'm wrong I know she'll correct me).

The numbers match up, too. 1,000 people their coordinator implied were force-added to the group (before any alleged shadowy ripoff group on 4/7), a total of 1,300 members...meanwhile, the Facebook "page" that you can like/unlike (different from the group) only has around 257 likes...makes sense that those are roughly the people who actually did join of their own free will.

447

Problems with the "Bogus AWAA Fan Page"..

by OUTLAW in

good afternoon jwn... .

i`ve spent the morning and part of my afternoon... getting to the bottom of... why names were added to the awaa fan page... it`s a dangerous thing to happen in our world... faders can be outed,we can lose,family,friends... the results can be an absolute disaster... .

aawa "did not" create the facebook awaa fan page.

fizzywiglet

Except, that's not quite accurate, Cedars, and as has been pointed out, you have opened up the group and increased the likelihood of outing...I'm still hearing from people as recently as this evening who didn't realize they'd been force-added to the group until they read about it on JWN. For the reasons previously outlined, many people are unaware and it may take quite a while before they are.

Jgnat keeps asking if I feel I have been heard (I'm confused as to the motive behind the question; people are still asking questions and I respond to them with the facts that I do know or have personal experience with in this scenario. If someone states something that I know to be untrue, I will say so and will back that up with why I know it to be untrue). But anyway, I personally (can't speak for anyone else who was affected) will feel I have been heard when you do the following:

You claim you have no idea who/how many were force-added (though Juan Viejo said earlier that it was "in the hundreds", so it would seem you have at least a vague idea...and when confronted about it on your official AAWA page, your coordinator got defensive and seemed to imply that it was closer to 1,000, and justified it as being "too much work" to invite everybody properly via PM, thus openly advocating and sanctioning the force-add approach to the rest of the group in her capacity as an AAWA representative).

But OK, if I'm taking you at your word and you have no idea who/how many were force/added...then PM everybody in your entire group and let them know that they may have been added to the group without their knowledge, AAWA is very sorry and accepts full responsibility for any actual or potential breach of privacy, you have taken steps to prevent this in the future and it will not happen again, and you wanted to notify them and give them the opportunity to read the group's mission statement and choose whether to stay or go. For reasons I have outlined earlier, a "you can leave if you want" timeline post is highly insufficient and will not reach even a quarter of affected members. And it's quite easy to mass-PM your entire group. So I'm not sure why you guys keep dancing around it when it's suggested...unless you're more worried about a possible dip in your member count than doing the right thing.

Or, if you're not willing to do this, then Ann O'Maly has proposed an excellent and even more effective alternative solution; albeit one I think you'll enjoy even less. ;)

There is no other way for AAWA to limit the damage/potential damage and do your utmost to make sure people's privacy is not compromised further. Period. The end.

Welcome to running a nonprofit. Especially now that you're soliciting/accepting donations and holding yourself out as experts and public representatives, there are rules and standards you need to follow. You're not "playing" activist, now. You want to run a legally incorporated human rights organization that's supposed to help people, that means learning and abiding by a stringent code of ethics. It means being held responsible for the actions of your board members and coordinators and volunteers and group members. It means thinking things through before you act. It means realizing that your own personal agenda and image will always come second to the people you say you're trying to protect. And it means cutting the B.S. excuses, and often swallowing your pride and admitting you screwed up; doing something you don't want to do or living with a fair share of embarrassment, if it means learning from the experience and doing everything in your power to make it right. You expect people to trust you with their lives and their privacy, so earn it. As someone who co-runs her own international human rights organization, I figured out a long time ago you can't cut corners on this type of stuff, and then expect it to be OK just because you're gung-ho and passionate about your mission.

447

Problems with the "Bogus AWAA Fan Page"..

by OUTLAW in

good afternoon jwn... .

i`ve spent the morning and part of my afternoon... getting to the bottom of... why names were added to the awaa fan page... it`s a dangerous thing to happen in our world... faders can be outed,we can lose,family,friends... the results can be an absolute disaster... .

aawa "did not" create the facebook awaa fan page.

fizzywiglet

I had friends who were not added check before I left the group.

But yeah, I agree with you, opening it up to everyone without first PM-ing the entire group and letting them know they may have been added without permission and giving them the opportunity to leave is just playing with fire.