Great story Chris! Thanks for sharing it !
Happy Birthday Jackson!!
xenawarrior
JoinedPosts by xenawarrior
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Birthdays are a good memory
by Big Tex inyesterday was my son turned 9 years old.
he's going to have his birthday party this saturday but we took him out last night for his birthday dinner (he chose red lobster).
he had been dying to see what we had bought him for his birthday and begged (with those big puss n boots eyes) to open "just one" present yesterday morning.
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2 year old shot in head by 4 year old. (Houston, TX)
by kwintestal inhttp://www.ctv.ca/servlet/articlenews/story/ctvnews/1110737306940_2/?hub=world toddler shot by 4-year-old brother: texas police
associated press.
houston ?
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xenawarrior
After having thought about this for a bit- my drunk driving analogy isn't quite the right one to use in this situation because any time a person drinks to a point past the legal limit and then drives a car they are breaking the law. So banning alcohol for responsible drinkers because of the illegal acts of some who have accidently killed others while in that drunken state isn't the same as the point I was trying to make.
FMZ had it with the analogy of driving a car. It's a right, just like owning a gun and can be "accidently" as lethal as a gun while operating it legally. But, if you kill others with a car and it's found that there was any recklessness or inattentive driving involved, there will be consequences for it. Maybe the answer is to hold people accountable for their actions with guns in matters where children get hurt or killed. If you own a gun, YOU are responsible for it and if a child gets hurt while it's in your ownership, YOU pay the price under the legal system. I'd say that is much more equitable for the situation than going to the extreme and banning guns for everyone due to the irresponsibility of a few.
Joanna also hit the nail on the head with this:
This isn't even a gun issue really - it's that a four year old has somehow gotten the message that if I'm pissed off guns/violence can solve my problems. Sick and sad.
Well, since you were one of the first ones to steer this discussion into the realm of gun control as a means to irradicate gun related accidents and how much better things are over there because you have it, I guess you must also be having a real problem keeping on topic. If something is brought up in the discussion, it's discussed isn't it?
XenaW
You are talking about two separate issues here - yes this is an issue of gun control because any moron can go out and get a gun and leave it lying around for their child to blow their head off, just because their constitutional rights say they can (heaven forbid that their right to own a gun is taken away)
Criminals dont care whether it is legal or not to own a gun - so showing stats of gun CRIME doesnt really have anything to do with gun related ACCIDENTS that occur in the home because there is a gun i.e homes of law abiding people who would not have a reason to have a gun in the home if there were laws against it.
Ang, the two issues do meld together and they were already doing that by the time I entered this thread. I was adding my two cents into what was already being discussed. I notice no one else was told they weren't staying on topic, however. But I guess it's easier to say that than to discuss what I posted and it's relevance to gun accidents and children.
I don't see where any of the U.S. statistics separated out those accidents involving children and guns in law abiding people's homes vs. criminals. We don't really know do we? If the presence of guns is the reason for accidental deaths of children, that holds true whether the guns are obtained legally or illegally.
Do we know how many children have been killed accidently by guns in England? It's just as easy to have an accident with a gun and a child in the home of a criminal as it is in the home of a law abiding citizen. Or are criminals more careful with their guns around their children? We don't know these things. What it boils down to is not the guns- it's the people who own them and their personal responsibility or lack thereof.
Well having the guaranteed RIGHT to bear arms is obviously more important than having sensible legislation that would go a long way to reducing the amount of these tragedies that you hear about, as if it was illegal, a normal person (not a criminal), hense good percentage of the population would not have a gun in the home in the first place so the chances of an accident of this sort is greatly reduced.
You cannot legislate stupidity or irresponsibility. Although the story of this child and the real tragedy it is happens to be discussed right now, accidents with children and guns really is a small portion overall. The statistics I posted from '2000 showed 86 total accidental deaths with children involving guns. And as tragic as each one of those deaths may be, banning guns simply will not eliminate that. This sensible legislation you speak of may help reduce this number but will increase other numbers of deaths, including children, due to illegal guns. Banning guns won't make them go away as is evidenced in your own country.
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2 year old shot in head by 4 year old. (Houston, TX)
by kwintestal inhttp://www.ctv.ca/servlet/articlenews/story/ctvnews/1110737306940_2/?hub=world toddler shot by 4-year-old brother: texas police
associated press.
houston ?
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xenawarrior
xenawarrior: You seem to have a real problem keeping on topic. We are not talking about gun crime, although there too the UK generally has much less, we're talking about gun control and how the simple concept of having fewer guns relates to having fewer gun accidents.
Well, since you were one of the first ones to steer this discussion into the realm of gun control as a means to irradicate gun related accidents and how much better things are over there because you have it, I guess you must also be having a real problem keeping on topic. If something is brought up in the discussion, it's discussed isn't it?
You touted your lack of availability of guns in your country and stated that you have less gun related accidents.
We don't have guns generally avaulable and so tend to have far far fewer gun related accidents.
You offered no statistics to back this up and the data I found seems to point to the fact that your gun control hasn't had the desired lessening affect on crime in your country in general so why would it result in fewer gun related accidents either? Since guns are the reason for the accidents and even though you have the strict gun control that you feel fixes that, you still have guns and the crime that goes with them, then don't you also still have the accidents? Or is England a magical place where one thing doesn't naturally lead to the other like it does in the U.S.?And yes, if people cannot generally do something safely then legislation can remove the right of everyone. eg. **some** people can drive at 175 MPH in total control but most people cannot.
Well since driving at 175 mph is illegal here it wouldn't matter anyway- the person driving 175 mph- whether they could handle it or not is violating the law. We don't have a right to violate the law so there would be no rights taken away from anyone else to ensure another's ability to drive 175 mph. Someone owning a gun and dealing with it responsibly is doing something legal and he/she has a right to that which shouldn't (IMO) be removed because a small portion of the numbers violate that right.
I think the whole gun thing is part of the general American paranoia - you seem to live in total and constant fear. How sad.
Actually, one of the things many of us do fear is losing the rights we were guaranteed by our Constitution. -
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2 year old shot in head by 4 year old. (Houston, TX)
by kwintestal inhttp://www.ctv.ca/servlet/articlenews/story/ctvnews/1110737306940_2/?hub=world toddler shot by 4-year-old brother: texas police
associated press.
houston ?
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xenawarrior
Before you break out your usual toxic reply, please keep in mind my husband was killed by a drunk driver. Does this influence my opinion? Damn Skippy.
I'm sorry that your husband was killed and in such an awful way.
My "usual toxic reply"? So replies that offer an idea or a way of thinking that is different from your own are considered "toxic"? I've simply presented the other side of the issue and I"ve done so in a civil manner. If you find toxicity in that, it has nothing to do with me.
I guess I don't see apples and oranges. Both drinking and owning a gun are rights that come with responsiblity. If that responsibility is shirked or abused in either case it can result in accidental death. Most gun owners, like most who drink alcohol, do so responsibly and no one gets killed because of it. Although I don't have statistics for it- I would venture a guess based on the accidental deaths of children in the studies, that out of those numbers, there are just as many children accidently killed by drunken drivers as guns. I don't believe taking away the rights the many to serve the few in either case is the answer.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclination, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. ~~ John Adams
Avi- I agree. That woman should have been in control of that gun. I've also owned dogs and still had guns in the house. I figured- someone coming to rob my house isn't going to enter with the barking of what is obviously two large dogs and if they do, they are there to harm me and then I will protect myself.
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Gumbys Sunday School Sermon - Handicapped People
by gumby ingood morning fellow servants of the lord, and welcome!
lets all stand and sing song number #666 "our merciful god" .
*passes really big collection plate* .
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xenawarrior
Do you think her confusion of Ghandi with our beloved Rev. would qualify as grounds for revoking her duties in the Church of Gumby?
LOL Nancy- only if she had a bum leg or something to boot
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2 year old shot in head by 4 year old. (Houston, TX)
by kwintestal inhttp://www.ctv.ca/servlet/articlenews/story/ctvnews/1110737306940_2/?hub=world toddler shot by 4-year-old brother: texas police
associated press.
houston ?
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xenawarrior
edited to add: Here are some examples of the tests I am referring to
Both articles you listed referred to the same single test.
If you don't own a gun, you don't have to worry about gun *accidents*. Many of these tragic occurrences happen in households where there are experienced gun owners, have taught their children about gun *safety*.
Just because some gun owners or people from gun-owning families did NOT experience a tragedy doesn't mean they won't continue to happen ... needlessly.
In reality there are very few of these types of accidents. That is not to say that they aren't all tragic. But it seems that this is how you would solve it:
Personally I feel the only individuals who should possess guns are law enforcement or military, after being trained and ongoing completion of training for safety.
So my rights to own a gun should be taken away because of the mistakes of others? Should your right to drink alcohol be taken away because some idiots have gone out and gotten drunk and gotten behind the wheel of a car and killed others in the process?
Here are some real statistics about the deaths of children:
Fact Sheet: The Real Story On Kids' Deaths
Cause Number (Ages 0-14) Number (Ages 0-4) Motor-vehicle 2,591 819 Drowning 943 568 Fires and flames 593 327 Mechanical suffocation 601 508 Ingestion of food, object* 169 169 Firearms 86 19 Source: Figures are for 2000. National Safety Council, Injury Facts: 2003 Edition, at 10-11, 129.
* The "Ingestion of food, object" category is underreported in the first column since the NSC did not include death rates for "5 to 14 Years." -
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Gumbys Sunday School Sermon - Handicapped People
by gumby ingood morning fellow servants of the lord, and welcome!
lets all stand and sing song number #666 "our merciful god" .
*passes really big collection plate* .
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xenawarrior
that man was an imposter and no relation to me. The only pet I have ever owned is a blow fish.
They caught up with him then eh?
Well, that's what they get anyway!! Who takes a check from a rubber man and doesn't expect it to "bounce"? Geez !!
BTW- that "stomach ailment" isn't a disability in diguise is it?
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2 year old shot in head by 4 year old. (Houston, TX)
by kwintestal inhttp://www.ctv.ca/servlet/articlenews/story/ctvnews/1110737306940_2/?hub=world toddler shot by 4-year-old brother: texas police
associated press.
houston ?
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xenawarrior
It is purely and simply a gun control issue - if guns are available then people will be shot ... including kids.
No, actually it's a people control issue. That woman should have had that firearm secured and she should have been educated about the need for and importance of that. It's a very tragic situation but the gun is not to blame, the moron who owned the gun is. When I was the same age that little boy was, we lived in a pretty bad area of Chicago. There was a loaded shotgun in my parent's room propped up in the corner. None of us would have dared touch it.
Growing up there were guns in most of the homes of my relatives. They were hunters and avid sportsmen. All of the children were educated about the dangers of firearms and when we were old enough my Grandfather taught us how to shoot one and we'd shoot at beer cans lined up on a fence. When the boys were old enough to go deer hunting and expressed a desire to do so, they went through a gun safety course. Most of the kids I grew up with had the same type of experience with guns in their homes. We were taught respect for guns and they were therefore not a danger to us as kids.
The fact is that gun control in the U.S. as it has come about through legislation has done little to control the criminal's ability to obtain one.
Instead of taking away my right to own a gun when I've been trained and know how to use one, why not require gun safety training in order to get one? There is a waiting period for gun ownership anyway- why not add one more step? Either provide certification that you have already completed a gun safety course or enroll in a class before you can pick it up.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you don't have to pass any sort of intelligence or "sense" test to get a gun?
No, and they don't require it for buying a car or even a Bowie knife either.
We don't have guns generally avaulable and so tend to have far far fewer gun related accidents.
Oh really? http://www.gunowners.org/sk0703.htm* England: According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its draconian gun ban in 1997. 4
4 "Handgun crime 'up' despite ban," BBC News Online (July 16, 2001) at http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/uk/newsid_1440000/1440764.stm . England is a prime example of how crime has increased after implementing gun control. For example, the original Pistols Act of 1903 did not stop murders from increasing on the island. The number of murders in England was 68 percent higher the year after the ban's enactment (1904) as opposed to the year before (1902). (Greenwood, supra note 1.) This was not an aberration, as almost seven decades later, firearms crimes in the U.K. were still on the rise: the number of cases where firearms were used or carried in a crime skyrocketed almost 1,000 percent from 1946 through 1969. (Greenwood, supra note 1 at 158.) And by 1996, the murder rate in England was 132 percent higher than it had been before the original gun ban of 1903 was enacted. (Compare Greenwood, supra note 1, with Bureau of Justice Statistics, Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and Wales, 1981-96, Bureau of Justice Statistics, October 1998).
BBC News Online: UK
Monday, 16 July, 2001, 04:50 GMT 05:50 UKHandgun crime 'up' despite ban
A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.
The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals.
The ban on ownership of handguns was introduced in 1997 as a result of the Dunblane massacre, when Thomas Hamilton opened fire at a primary school leaving 16 children and their teacher dead.
Existing gun laws do not lead to crime reduction and a safer place
David Bredin
Campaign for ShootingBut the report suggests that despite the restrictions on ownership the use of handguns in crime is rising.
The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000.
rest of the article is here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/1440764.stm
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* Canada: After enacting stringent gun control laws in 1991 and 1995, Canada has not made its citizens any safer. "The contrast between the criminal violence rates in the United States and in Canada is dramatic," says Canadian criminologist Gary Mauser in 2003. "Over the past decade, the rate of violent crime in Canada has increased while in the United States the violent crime rate has plummeted." 3
3 Gary A. Mauser, "The Failed Experiment: Gun Control and Public Safety in Canada, Australia, England and Wales," Public Policy Sources (The Fraser Institute, November 2003), no. 71:4. This study can be accessed at http://www.fraserinstitute.org/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=pb&id=604.
The Failed Experiment: Gun Control and Public Safety in Canada, Australia, England and Wales
Publication Dat, Professor, Simon Fraser University
Email: [email protected]
Telephone: (604) 291-3652Executive Summary: Widely televised firearm murders in many countries during the 20th Century have spurred politicians to introduce restrictive gun laws. The politicians then promise that the new restrictions will reduce criminal violence and "create a safer society." It is time to pause and ask if gun laws actually do reduce criminal violence.
Gun laws must be demonstrated to cut violent crime or gun control is no more than a hollow promise. What makes gun control so compelling for many is the belief that violent crime is driven by the availability of guns and, more importantly, that criminal violence in general may be reduced by limiting access to firearms.rest of the study here:
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=pb&id=604
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Seems you have some cleaning up to do in your own backyard.
darned formatting !!
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Gumbys Sunday School Sermon - Handicapped People
by gumby ingood morning fellow servants of the lord, and welcome!
lets all stand and sing song number #666 "our merciful god" .
*passes really big collection plate* .
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xenawarrior
Fay's Litter
Of Fay's eight, I have been able to follow the progress of all but one (Number Nine died soon after birth). Blaise, bless his heart, was taken by a man who called himself Reverend Gumby. According to the breeder, Virginia, the Reverend's check bounced and he left town with neither forwarding address nor congregation. We only hope that Blaise is happy and well cared for. Perhaps he is a minister now too. -
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Gumbys Sunday School Sermon - Handicapped People
by gumby ingood morning fellow servants of the lord, and welcome!
lets all stand and sing song number #666 "our merciful god" .
*passes really big collection plate* .
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xenawarrior
I'm still wondering where the cookies are damnit