Read the book, "The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine then reflect on the question of church. Organized religion, Paine wrote, was "set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." However he expressed belief in God in a simple theology or philosophy of Deism.
"God exists and there it lies.", he expressed.
People "congregate" or get together for all sorts of reasons. Church attendance appeals to those who need a sense of identity or association in addition to seeking guidance. But for those on this forum who are skeptical of organized religion, or so-called "revealed" religion, why be ensnared again? Despite being critical of pious fraud and religion, Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson believed in simple Deism which meant discovering God through nature and reason and rejecting the superstitious myths of supernatural religion. Doubting Thomas'? Maybe, but these and other freethinkers attributed much greater natural goodness and decency to common people than does the so-called "word of god" or the Bible. Remember being drilled "...the heart of man is bad from his youth up"? I suppose, after being indroctrinated in this demoralizing and cynical thinking, people would "act bad". Jefferson felt that people had a greater capacity to do good and expressed his disdain for organized religion's negative effect as such:
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned: yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
-Notes on the State of Virginia (1781-82)
Yet, Jefferson fought for religious freedom, freethought and freewill. The WTS should give him credit. I doubt Jefferson would give the same regard to the WTS. Anyway, my response to this question would be, as Thomas Paine put it, "My own mind is my own church." I would further add, being a decent human being is my sense of identity.
Deist
JoinedPosts by Deist
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If you decided to try a church, which one would you try?and why?
by LyinEyes ini have been thinking of doing something i have wanted to for along time, just to see, that is go to a church.
i guess i am a little afraid , or nervous , more than anything, but i feel i ready to venture out there and see what it is about,,,,,,,,,,,lol, i might not stay , i just want to try it.. i just want to give it a chance and right now i have no reason why i shouldnt if i go in with my eyes open.
i dont know what religion to start with,,,,,,,,, i figure this may be a journey on finding what feels right to me, or it could end up i stay home and do my own worship , who knows.. i know there are many christains on this board and i would be interested in hearing why you choose the faith you did, if it is methodist, catholic, baptist, or other mainstream ones.. i am also interested in other forms of religion some have choosen, and why?
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Deist
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Now that you are EXJW, what do you teach your children about Spirituality?
by LyinEyes inmost of you know that my youngest son, 8, is a little worry wart.......he is always worrying about death, mainly me dying.
he has been to doctors when he was younger for ptsd, ocd, and addh.
what are you doing in teaching your children spiritual things?
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Deist
In a letter (1787) giving advise to his nephew, Peter Carr, Thomas Jefferson wote in part regarding religion,
http://www.th-jefferson.org/html/petercarr.html
"Your reason is now mature enough to examine this object. In the first place, divest yourself of all bias in favor of novelty & singularity of opinion. Indulge them in any other subject rather than that of religion. It is too important, and the consequences of error may be too serious. On the other hand, shake off all the fears & servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
Jefferson also advised to read religious writings in the same way one would read any other book. Consequently, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, "Examine, therefore, candidly, what evidence there is of his having been inspired. The pretension is entitled to your inquiry, because millions believe it."
Some great thinkers since Jefferson, including Einstein, had a form of spirtuality (Deism),
"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God." --Albert Einstein
Another thinker, Carl Sagan, said, "A religion that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by traditional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge"
Needless to say, the religion of the Watchtower Society is not it.
Lastly, in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with not being sure, or not believing in God either--far better to simply be a decent human being than to espouse a faith and be a hypocrite.
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Now that you are EXJW, what do you teach your children about Spirituality?
by LyinEyes inmost of you know that my youngest son, 8, is a little worry wart.......he is always worrying about death, mainly me dying.
he has been to doctors when he was younger for ptsd, ocd, and addh.
what are you doing in teaching your children spiritual things?
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Deist
In the book, The Age of Reason, Thomas Paine (patriot and contemporary of Thomas Jefferson and George Washington) wrote,
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy."
I would encourage anyone to read the book, The Age of Reason, to look at a refreshing perspective and opinion of spirituality and reason. I am sure most, if not all, public libraries have a copy.
Otherwise, you might want to look at this site:
http://www.sullivan-county.com/deism.htm
Kind regards,
Deist -
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The coming "disassociations"
by Elsewhere ini have seen several threads about how the elders are going to be going around asking people if they still consider themselves to be jehovah's witnesses.
this will undoubtedly result in multiple da announcements in the coming months.
i'm curious how the average jw will perceive this and respond to it.
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Deist
JT,
What precludes a person from taking legal action, for whatever actual reason, regardless if one disassociated or not? Why would a court deem fleeing (disassociation) from an abusive organization or situation an act negating legal action? We have seen on their PR Website: http://www.jw-media.org/beliefs/beliefsfaq.htm
Do you shun former members?
Those who simply leave the faith are not shunned.
The "theocratic warfare" strategy of WTS needs to be challenged in court. Seems to me that JW's are forced to give up basic civil rights inherent with our Democracy when ones associate and are abused when they leave.
Listers may want to check this out: http://www.watchtower-victims.org
"This web site is also the home for a Worldwide Class Action Suit against the WTS which you are invited to join to be recompensed for your suffering. The following is a list of some of the reasons to join the Class:
You have been shunned.
You have been disfellowshipped or disassociated by them.
You have been alienated from your family and friends.
You have lost a family member as a result of the Blood Policy.
You have suffered harm from the WTS.
A family member committed suicide because of the WTS Policies.
You or someone in your family suffered sexual abuse.
Loss of income from a spouse you were dependant on who died as a result of WTS policies:
If you believed you have been deceived, received negligent dissemination of information, misinformation, or were lied to.
You suffered mental anguish as a result of WTS policies.
If you consider yourself a victim of Penal Sanction.
If you believe that your basic human rights and freedoms have been withheld or interfered with." -
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Why Worldly Standards are Superior
by metatron inwitnesses are accustomed to think that watchtower generated rules would make the.
world a peaceful happy place.
let's examine that claim:.
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Deist
Excellent post by Metatron!
I posted earlier concerning a different subject, but I am posting here as I think it is related. Here are my comments and opinions:
For those still inactive, why not simply disassociate yourselves? According to their own spin doctors (see below concerning shunning former members), "Those who simply leave the faith are not shunned."
http://www.jw-media.org/beliefs/beliefsfaq.htm
Regardless of what the reality is, a person can be free from the mind control and manipulation. One shouldn't have to hide, fear phone calls, or fear answering the door because of pompous and deluded false prophets. Yes, some of these individuals end up being relatives, but you have the right not to be emotionally abused. Neither do they, so are you absolutely sure your departure in your own dignified manner can't draw "honest hearted ones" out sooner or later?
There are legal ways to be protected from harassment and trespassing. Find out more by looking at your state's laws on the internet. If you are harassed, contact your local prosecutor or your own attorney. Once a person disassociates, the WTS has no reason to pursue coercion. Niether do they have the right to slander or libel such a person.
Certainly, leaving quietly by "slipping away" is desirable to many because it has the appearance of being non-confrontational. But the chains are still there for the WTS to come to you. Disassociation does not have be confrontational either. You can simply state in a certified letter that you disassociate for conscience reasons. No futher discussion with them is necessary. This would be true, unless you really feel that you must go out, knock on doors, tell people how good JW's are and that so-called paradise is entitled for those who submit to the WTS.
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Pathofthorns,
In my opinion, the WTS would not be getting rid of you, rather the opposite... the luxury would be yours. At any rate, the issue here is freethought and freewill. Those who wish to shun you have a choice also. Make it inconvenient for them, then, to remain in the WTS religion. Moreoften, they immediately show their true colors, yet this is not always permanent.
I respect your intent to maintain some sort of dignity in hiding, but in their eyes there is no dignified way to leave. What really matters are your eyes... and your time. I am sure there are many more decent and reasonable people in your community that would respect your distancing yourself from JW's regardless of how the few inside a Kingdom Hall feel.
Humanity is not as bad as the WTS and other high-control groups try to make it seem.
The WTS does not need to be reformed and can't be anyway. Why persist among the duped and deluded?
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J.W.S.
You previously questioned in an earlier post:
"Or would they interrogate my father as to my opinions and DA me themselves?"
I apologize if you were offended by my posts. However, I feel that my comments were decent and were based on common sense. It is very sad that people unfortunately have to live in fear this way. Really, I am not naive about WTS or JW's. I simply think it is important to consider "risk" at times in order to more fully comply with ones own conscience. Sometimes one person's risk makes it easier for another. The fact that you state the above question about your father being interrogated would concern anyone who has alarm for mind control and abusive behavior. Are you sure that your family's love or care for you is that shallow?
This question should not insult. I mean not to insult and, of course, you don't have to agree with what I have said. That the WTS engaging in this witch hunt of sorts in the next few months would alarm any decent human being.
No, you really are not "free" if you fear interrogation for you or your family.
Thomas Paine wrote: "Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst; every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live; but this attempts to stride beyond the grave, and seeks to pursue us into eternity."
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Change from within?
What value does the WTS have for humanity?
Certainly, there is merit for reforming a valued institution and doing so from within. But the WTS is a so-called "theocratic" organization, not a democratic one in which good common sense and reason are used (or tried) to guide its participants. A democratic organization is not perfect and does not purport to achieve perfection, however, the nature of it allows and requires accountability of its members. Leaders of a democracy are limited in their terms and are, in effect, fired if they fail to perform or are corrupt.
In my opinion, the idea that the WTS is even worthy of reform is ludicrous.
To be sure, the posts concerning the subject: Review of Elders Course has been interesting and valuable. It is entirely possible that during the departure from the WTS and JW's, those doing so share insights, as Caspian has, to help other thinkers and to provide a protection for those easily lured into the WTS. But to attempt to reform something that is a deception from its inception or invention is futile and a meaningless waste of time.
Thomas Paine wrote in his book, The Age of Reason:
"We cannot serve God in the manner we serve those who cannot do without such service; and, therefore, the only idea we can have of serving God is that of contributing to the happiness of the living creation that God has made. This cannot be done by retiring ourselves from the society of the world and spending a recluse life in selfish devotion."
The above written in 1794 by a person who greatly helped previously in the birth of United States was no atheist, rather he also opinioned while believing in the Creator:
"...I have always strenuosly supported the right of every man to his own opinion, however different that opinion might be to mine. He who denies to another this right, makes a slave of himself to his present opinion, because he precludes himself the right of changing it. The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason."
Again, the question of reforming the WTS requires the thought of being relegated to perpetual mind control and silencing of opinion and true reason. Human beings have the capacity to act morally and decent without fear of eternal destruction or Armageddon. Individuals might act better if they were not told from "infancy" that "the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up". Alternatively, folks might be more sincere in their actions if they weren't slaving for the WTS in an effort to gain a supposed paradise.
Rather people would do better to consider:
"Love your fellow man not because an ancient book tells you to, but because you feel it is right. Do what is right not out of fear of punishment, but out of the joy of helping your fellow man. Love God not so that God will do your bidding, but because you love the universe God gave you to explore. Die not so that you may be martyred or eternally rewarded, but so you may rest."
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One person simply stated: "God exists, and there it lies." For those who believe in a Creator but abhor the mind control and hypocrisy of the WTS and JW's might consider this project I found: http://www.deism.org
Best regards,
Deist -
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How do ex-JW's actually choose another religion?
by buffy inok, here's my question.
how do you go from being a jw to being a whatever (methodist, lutheran, etc.
) i've been invited to go to many churches with friends, but, i have no desire to ever set foot in any church.
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Deist
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow creatures happy." --The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine
The author of the Declaration of Independence and the third President of the United States made these observations:
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned: yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and terror all over the earth." --Notes on the State of Virginia (1781-1782)
"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticism that three are one and one is three, and yet, that the one is not three, and the three are not one....But this constitutes the craft, the power, and the profits of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of fictitious religion and they would catch no more flies." --Letter to John Adams, 1813
All this sounds simple, I know, but one is much less encumbered and more able to think and appreciate life for what one makes of it.
If you want to help children, consider this site: http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/
Best wishes,
Deist
Edited by - Deist on 29 September 2002 4:4:52Edited by - Deist on 30 September 2002 2:25:41