Saw this Watch Tower article from 100 years ago and decided to start a "100 Years Ago Today" blog on AD1914.com

by Gilgamesh in

http://ad1914.com/100-years-june-28-1915/.

june 1915 was the first full month wherein watchtower readers could obtain and read a new publication that had just become available out of brooklyn in the previous month.

here's how it was announced in the may 1, 1915 watchtower, known then as, zion's watch tower, emphasis ours:.

Gilgamesh

oppostate,

Interesting. I was looking up 7th Day Adventists reactions to the war to see if there were similarities. I didn't see a parallel story, but I noticed that German 7DA's are apologizing for their pro-War stance during WW1. But I also found it interesting that several Adventists believed (along with Bible students) that Jesus wouldn't delay his arrival beyond the end of 1915.

https://www.stanet.ch/apd/news/3995.html

The Presidents of both Conferences, Pastors Johannes Naether (Hannover) and Günther Machel (Ostfildern near Stuttgart), recall that many Adventists at the time saw the outbreak of World War I as “a sign of the end of the world”. Before the war, a number of Adventists had served in the military but refused to carry out duties on Sabbath (Saturday), risking potentially severe penalties. Others considered it part of their preparation for the imminent return of Jesus to refuse to carry weapons or to participate in the military immunization program.
However, shortly after the general mobilization on August 2, 1914, the Central European leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Hamburg issued a circular letter recommending enlisted Adventists to “fulfil our military duties wholeheartedly and with joy," to bear arms, and also to serve on the Sabbath. This circular and other such publications provoked a complex protest in Adventist congregations, leading to tensions and divisions within the church. In 1915 this state of affairs led to the rising of a separate organization, the self-designated “Reform Movement”, which accused its mother church, the “greater church” of a “Babylonian apostasy from the true Advent faith”.
"Today we recognize and concede," said the two German Seventh-day Adventist leaders, "that during these disputes our fathers often did not act in the spirit of love and reconciliation demonstrated by Jesus." Out of concern for the survival of the denomination in Germany, advice contradicting the Word of God was given which led to division and profound hurt. The former Adventist leadership did not adequately fulfil their responsibility to the Church. They unjustly accused members who contradicted them of having “fallen” from the truth, and in individual cases went as far as having people pursued by the authorities. . . .
Today, Pastors Naether and Machel again apologize in the name of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, saying; "Even though none of those directly involved are still alive, we ask their descendants and relatives along with the still existing groups of the Reform Movement for forgiveness for our failings. . . .
From amongst these critics, some of whom explained their opposition by their expectation of Jesus return in early summer 1915, a fixed group established itself over the course of the year. Some later found a place back in an Adventist congregation, but the majority of the objectors remained part of this “Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement” which rejected any form of military service altogether.
The circular letter of August 2, 1914, was criticized by the Adventist Church World Leadership based in the USA, and was later withdrawn with regret by the German Church Leadership in 1920, and again in 1923. This attempt at reconciliation failed however, as had previous attempts from both sides soon after the First World War ended. As a result, two Adventist camps existed during the time of the Weimar Republic: the traditional Seventh-day Adventists, and the Reformed Seventh-day Adventists, who subsequently divided into a number of further smaller groups due to internal conflicts. Most dissolved prior to the start of the Nazi regime, and the remaining groups soon came to the attention of the new rulers, since they refused to participate in elections. In 1936 the Gestapo dissolved the Reform Movement. Most of the smaller groups were outlawed in the same year, the remainder in 1937 and 1942.
END OF QUOTE

I find it interesting how the portion of the 7DA's who broke off from the larger group (because they apparently stood up conscientiously for something good) were the ones who ultimately nearly disappeared.

There is a site that still represents the 7DA reform movement: http://www.sdarm.org/book/export/html/5

Here are some excerpts from that site about the same situation mentioned above:

The opposing faction finally brought about the disfellowshipment from the organization of the followers of the original principles of faith." . . .
In the same year, SDA leaders made another declaration, as follows:

"In the beginning of the war there were some members, as there are also in other places, who did not want to take part in war service, either because of their lack of unity, or because of fanaticism. They started to spread around their foolish ideas in the congregation by word and in writing, trying to convince others to do the same. They were admonished by the church, but because of their obstinacy they had to be put out, for they became a threat to internal and external peace." –Stuttgarter Neues Tagblatt, September 26, 1918.

Those disfellowshipped from the Seventh-day Adventist Church, not only in Germany but also in many other countries in Europe, had no intention of starting a new church. They were about 4,000 in number.

7

Saw this Watch Tower article from 100 years ago and decided to start a "100 Years Ago Today" blog on AD1914.com

by Gilgamesh in

http://ad1914.com/100-years-june-28-1915/.

june 1915 was the first full month wherein watchtower readers could obtain and read a new publication that had just become available out of brooklyn in the previous month.

here's how it was announced in the may 1, 1915 watchtower, known then as, zion's watch tower, emphasis ours:.

Gilgamesh

100 Years Ago: July 1915 – Going to war was still OK

July 26, 2015

Main Points:

In 1915, the Watch Tower still supported going to war if drafted, a policy that stayed about the same from at least as early as 1898 to as late as 1939.
Watch Tower suggests that if drafted to serve (conscripted) the Bible Student should request non-combatant service but, if not given this option, could shoot to miss, or shoot over the head of the enemy.
An interesting story is offered in support of God’s blessing on this “tactic.” Based on the meeting between between two “Bible Student” combatants, armed against each other with bayonets, early in 1915.
The odds against this story actually occurring were so astronomical that the story is, in effect, a claim of a miracle – but a miracle in support of a doctrine that Jehovah never really approved.

The whole article/post is long so I won't repeat it here. It's at:

http://ad1914.com/2015/07/26/100-years-ago-july-1915-going-to-war-was-still-ok/

I thought it was most interesting how the latest 2015 Yearbook still uses a story from 1915 about a mathematically "miraculous" meeting of two soldiers. The article discusses the odds of this occurring unless miraculous. But if it was miraculous, why did Jehovah produce such a miracle in support of a "false" doctrine, when he surely should have found it much easier to protect an "accurate" Greek manuscript of the New Testament with Jehovah's name in it. (for example.)

7

Saw this Watch Tower article from 100 years ago and decided to start a "100 Years Ago Today" blog on AD1914.com

by Gilgamesh in

http://ad1914.com/100-years-june-28-1915/.

june 1915 was the first full month wherein watchtower readers could obtain and read a new publication that had just become available out of brooklyn in the previous month.

here's how it was announced in the may 1, 1915 watchtower, known then as, zion's watch tower, emphasis ours:.

Gilgamesh

I added another one. This time about the 1915 Troy-Rutherford debates.

ruth-troy-debate

100 Years Ago: Presidential Debates – Watchtower Style

The Watch Tower Society found that debates were a fairly good way of “marketing” so that this very small religious group could make a big splash.

Russell, as president of the Watch Tower Society, had gained attention especially through the Eaton-Russell debate in 1903 and then White-Russell debate in 1908. He said that he believed the Lord’s providence had opened up the way for those two debates.

So why did Russell put the report about about the Rutherford-Troy debate in the very back as the last article of the May 1, 1915 Watch Tower? And, more importantly, why was the first article in this same issue all about downplaying the value of debates?

Some have guessed that Russell was a bit concerned about Rutherford’s brash and bombastic style, and that it probably did not represent the same style Russell himself had carefully cultivated for the Watch Tower. . . . More . . .

The whole article is long and has already been covered on JWN before, so I'll just point to the article over on the site if anyone might wish to read on . . .

7

Saw this Watch Tower article from 100 years ago and decided to start a "100 Years Ago Today" blog on AD1914.com

by Gilgamesh in

http://ad1914.com/100-years-june-28-1915/.

june 1915 was the first full month wherein watchtower readers could obtain and read a new publication that had just become available out of brooklyn in the previous month.

here's how it was announced in the may 1, 1915 watchtower, known then as, zion's watch tower, emphasis ours:.

Gilgamesh

JUNE 1915 - C T RUSSELL WAS PROMOTING A "SPICY" PUBLICATION THAT HE HADN'T READ, & SAID HE WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH.

http://ad1914.com/100-years-june-28-1915/

June 1915 was the first full month wherein Watchtower readers could obtain and read a new publication that had just become available out of Brooklyn in the previous month. Here's how it was announced in the May 1, 1915 Watchtower, known then as, Zion's Watch Tower, emphasis ours:

_____________________________________________________________

JUDGE RUTHERFORD'S SPICY DEFENSE

Brother Rutherford, grieved by the various untruthful, slanderous attacks upon the Editor, has prepared a pamphlet in my defense. A copy of it has just been handed me. I have not yet read it, though, of course, I knew of its preparation and in a general way of its contents. I preferred not to have anything to do with its publication. It explains Brother Rutherford's views as a lawyer, as a brother, and as a man who most fully understands the entire situation. It contains some interesting illustrations and is priced at ten cents per copy, or eight dollars per hundred copies, postpaid. It is not unreasonable to expect that nearly all of our readers will be very glad to have this pamphlet, as it will furnish them with evidence on every point thus far brought forward by my maligners.

Orders for the pamphlets should be addressed to Judge Rutherford, New York City, P.O. Box 51. However, we will have a supply at THE WATCH TOWER Office, and, if one is ordering other things, this pamphlet can be supplied also. It is entitled, "A GREAT BATTLE IN THE ECCLESIASTICAL HEAVENS."

_____________________________________________________________

If you'd like to read this booklet, it is available online in a few places. (See below for one of them.) You might enjoy it. But you might also see why Russell wanted nothing to do with this particular publication. Legal experts have also surmised why, perhaps, he would state that he had not personally read the publication. The booklet is packed with information which would require a full book's worth of commentary to do it justice.

https://archive.org/details/AGreatBattleInTheEcclesiasticalHeavens

5

Recent Finds: How SPIRITISM is still attached to the 1914 doctrine

by Gilgamesh in

recent finds: how spiritism is still attached to the 1914 doctrine http://wp.me/p4cpzs-fr.

for the ad1914.com site, we'll be adding a section called "recent finds.

" i would like to continue adding some interesting bits and pieces from various forums, sites, blogs that are especially related to the 1914 doctrine.

Gilgamesh

Recent Finds: How SPIRITISM is still attached to the 1914 doctrine http://wp.me/p4cpZS-Fr

For the ad1914.com site, we'll be adding a section called "Recent Finds." I would like to continue adding some interesting bits and pieces from various forums, sites, blogs that are especially related to the 1914 doctrine. About 3 people who post here have given me permission to use material they have posted. I haven't used any of it directly yet, except for Doug Mason's pdf's. I don't know for sure if I am going about this correctly because I feel funny using this site to promote another one. I saw other people doing it, so I figured if I did this only about once a month on average, it wouldn't look too "crass." The post linked above, comes originally from a different site. I mention this because if anyone else believes they have some good 1914 or chronology-related material that they'd like to see re-posted on ad1914.com, please let me know. If it's not your own, I'll try to get in touch with the site owner and/or the original poster.

HERE IS THE "RECENT FINDS" ARTICLE (It's really about the 1918 belief, but that's close enough to 1914, so we used it. I've added a couple remarks in brackets for some clarifications.)

[Post #1]

Historically, the Watchtower has always said that the resurrection of some of the 144,000 happened many years ago. Up until 1927, that resurrection had happened in 1878. [Started in 1878 after which those "anointed" who died would be instantly changed.] This is why in 1916 after Russell died, the Watchtower claimed for many years that Russell was communicating with the Watchtower Society and was continuing to run every phase of the work “from beyond the veil.” The Watchtower defended this position against a charge of spiritism on the grounds that Russell was still alive. (Of course, he would still be a spirit, so I don’t know how well that argument worked.)

In 1927, the date for the resurrection of all the previously deceased members of the 144,000 up to that point was changed from 1878 to 1918. Up until less than 10 years ago, our official position was that the apostle Paul, for example, was resurrected in 1918. [And those "anointed" who died after 1918 would be changed to spirit creatures instantly upon death.] This was taught, not just as a guess, but an established fact. But then in 2007 we got a very interesting Watchtower article:

*** w07 1/1 p. 27 par. 9 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Reasonably, then, anointed ones who die before Armageddon are resurrected sometime between 1914 and Armageddon. *** end of quote ***

This opened up a whole new range of possibility, including the possibility that NONE of the 144,000 have been resurrected yet. And this is still a possibility based on the updated view of the rapture in the May 15, 2015 Watchtower.

However, the old 1918 resurrection is not completely dismissed as a possibility, it’s only that it has been downgraded from an established fact to “an interesting possibility”

*** w07 1/1 p. 27 par. 10 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Can we say more precisely when the first resurrection begins?
. . .
It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today. Why is that important? Because the correct identity of the great crowd was revealed to God’s anointed servants on earth in 1935. If one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth, he would have had to be resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest. That would indicate that the first resurrection began sometime between 1914 and 1935.
. . .
Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.
*** end of quote ***

[Post #2]

Just noticed that I referenced the May 15, 2015 about the “rapture.” I meant the July 15, 2015 issue. In fact, that’s most likely the very issue where the question comes up about whether the 144,000 are all in heaven just before the Great Tribulation starts, or just after it starts. Paragraphs 15 and 16 of the “rapture” article becomes just a bit vague at exactly that point.

http://www.jw. org/en/publications/magazines/w20150715/rapture-anointed-great-tribulation/

Just another curiosity on the 2007 issue quoted above.There are now about three different NEW problems with the 1918 date we used to teach.

1918 used to be mentioned as much or more than 1919. But in the last couple decades we had already stopped mentioning it for many years with reference to ANY current doctrine. Also, the Governing Body as the Faithful and Discreet Slave didn’t exist until 1919 in our new understanding. So as of the July 15, 2013 issue of the Watchtower, we officially dropped the last teachings related to 1918. We used to teach that the “spiritual temple” was inspected in 1918, and also that great tribulation started in 1914 and was interrupted in 1918, and that it would start up again just before Armageddon. Note:

*** w13 7/15 p. 3 par. 3 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
For a number of years, we thought that the great tribulation began in 1914 with World War I and that “those days were cut short” by Jehovah in 1918 when the war ended so that the remnant would have the opportunity to preach the good news to all nations.
*** end of quote ***

*** w13 7/15 p. 11 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” ***
Paragraph 6: This is an adjustment in understanding. Previously, we thought that Jesus’ inspection took place in 1918.
*** end of quote ***

So 1918 is no longer important to any other doctrine.

Another problem with it is that the 2007 article ends with the idea that “although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.” The problem here is that the only scriptural example is the verse in Thessalonians 4:13 which is not that directly supportive of the claim that this resurrection happens EARLY during the presence. If anything the emphasis is on how close together the timing of the resurrection aligns with the raising of the final LIVING survivors at the end.

Also, a third problem is the idea that we kept the “spiritism” idea as the way of supposedly narrowing down the time of the first resurrection between 1914 and 1935. The article said: “If one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth, he would have had to be resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest.” (24 elders is still identified as another term for the 144,000.)

The real problem is that we used to say that although 1935 was not found through Scripture, it didn’t matter because it was revealed as “lightning flashes” going forth into the “spiritual temple.” Rutherford used this expression a lot as if it was a form of either angelic inspiration or communication with those who had already passed beyond the veil. (The idea survived for many decades in our songbooks with the words “In God’s holy temple / Lightnings flash and shine / That we may be guided / By his light divine.) The problem is that 1935 is no longer considered to have any specific significance anymore. Now, it is just a time when the Watchtower began teaching something different and therefore clarifying or identifying the hope of a class who had seemed, for many years prior, not to know exactly what there hope was.

One last consideration is not included above because it hasn’t been commented upon yet in the Watchtower with reference to the first resurrection:

(2 Timothy 2:18 ) These men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some.

5

you know this site ?

by TJ Brother in

http://ad1914.com/.

this site contains a lot of interesting information .

personal experiences of former jehovah's witnesses , explanation of 607, 1914 faithful slave , and important changes in march 15th, 2015 watchtower, explained & clarified .. .

Gilgamesh

TJ Brother,

I see your email, and just responded. Since you asked about my own experiences and about persons I knew from Bethel, I'll respond here, too, in case others are interested:

TJ Brother,

Glad to meet you. I know some of what you are going through. At least I know how disturbing it can be to try to figure out what's right and what's wrong after you were so sure it was nearly 100% correct for so many years.

Many of my own family are still JWs, including my father, still an elder and my mother, who still pioneers when she can even in her old age. My grandparents were also JWs, and even a great-grandparent who went on speaking tours with Russell from after 1906 to 1916 and remained a Bible Student.

When I came to Bethel in 1976, my father already knew Brother Bert Schroeder on the Governing Body (from KM School) and I was quickly put into a job where I mostly did artwork, but also some proofreading and research. Brother Schroeder began assigning me some research projects that required a background in Greek even though I was not very skilled. I spent a lot of time in the Bethel Library and Gilead Library, and Brother Schroeder gave me access to his office and his library at any time. I also became friends with his son, and was often invited to the same gatherings that they went to. I even traveled to Europe in 1978 for 5 weeks, and traveled with the Schroeders for a portion of the way. I worked at the Athens branch office for nearly a week on that same trip to work on an assignment from Dean Songer.

But my research for Brother Schroeder would lead to some problems and contradictions. I discussed some of them with my roommate. When I asked my roommate about them he invited me to meet with Brother Lengtat, and this helped me see a lot more about what was going on, and how we got to these doctrines. I ended up reading most of our old publications while at Bethel, partly for Schroeder's assignments and partly to figure things out. I studied twice a week with Rinehard for about two years. I ended up with a lot more friends in the Writing Department (who I would also see and speak to when I was doing research for Bert Schroeder).

Many of these friends were starting to get into trouble and were about to be dismissed. I left Bethel in the Spring of 1980 to get married to a pioneer sister who Fred Rusk had studied with. Fred Rusk brought many members of the Governing Body and Gilead Instructors to meet this sister when he and his wife studied with her. And many of them went to the same congregation. Rinehard told me about Carl Jonsson's manuscript and I saw it when I was talking to Fred Rusk in his office once. Schroeder had a partial copy with him when we went to Europe in 1978.

In 1980, I had to meet with Dan Sydlik (GB member) to talk about my own doctrinal views because so many of my friends were in trouble. I thought I might be dismissed when I was called to his office. But I knew he himself had spoken about disagreeing with things in the past (like parts of 1914, and all of 1918, 1919, 1922, 1935) so we kind of laughed off the problems, promised to be very careful, and I asked about his advice on my upcoming marriage instead.

Rinehard was supposed to give my wedding talk, but things were getting to difficult for him, and another two of our friends from Writing gave the talk: Fred Rusk and Jim Napolitano. Rinehard remained very low-profile, and I haven't heard or spoken to him for at least 8 years.

I was in a very odd position, by having friends on both sides of the controversial questions which were being raised especially between 1977 and 1981. A brother in my congregation was a Bethel elder who did everything he could to get me dismissed in 1982 but he couldn't get any traction. Brothers from Bethel warned me about him so I was very careful even though he made sure I was assigned every part on Organization and 1914, etc. He even had the Circuit Overseer just happen to drop by when it wasn't his week for the visit to show up to listen. Bethel elders were asking to work in field service with me. I was still giving Sunday public talks in several congregations around NYC, and noticed that I was being followed by Bethel elders. So I wrote a letter to the Service Department about my intentions to step down in 1982/83, but it was intercepted by a member of the Writing Department who was questioned about it. He told us he wouldn't turn it in, because he was sure we would come to our senses very soon. This allowed me to technically remain a JW and continue to go through the motions with friends and family, and still communicate with various Bethelites. But my parents shunned me for a few years anyway, because I had already shown them the letter and it took them a while to understand what happened with it. At this point I only go to meetings or assemblies when I'm curious to research audience reactions to a revised doctrinal issue, or in a couple cases, when I'm visiting my parents.

Although I haven't served in any capacity in the congregation for over 30 years, I did handle a Witness funeral in Manhattan a couple years ago (2013) because it had been scheduled for the same day that most of the brothers were at the Annual Meeting. I already had a PDF of the 2013 Bible to be released later that day, so I have a feeling I'm the first person to give a talk using only the 2013 Revised New World Translation.

Barbara Anderson asked me about creating the website, ad1914.com , and she had a lot of good ideas for it and had already collected two or three of the personal experiences that show up on the site. I knew enough people to get several more, and it turned out to get a lot more attention than I ever expected.

5

you know this site ?

by TJ Brother in

http://ad1914.com/.

this site contains a lot of interesting information .

personal experiences of former jehovah's witnesses , explanation of 607, 1914 faithful slave , and important changes in march 15th, 2015 watchtower, explained & clarified .. .

Gilgamesh

Thanks TJ Brother,

Every now and then I have posted a new article here (or at least a reference to it) after posting it there on ad1914.com . We also get a lot of submissions and offers of content from other ex-JWs - some who are here on this forum. Glad you like it.

3

New Light on Types and Antitypes does NOT apply to Prophecy

by FusionTheism in

as far as i can tell, the new light on the types and antitypes applies to everything except for prophecies.

the watchtower still views themselves as free to say any prophecies can have multiple fulfillments.. this is why the society still says the giant tree from daniel has multiple meanings and the faithful and discreet slave does too.

because they classify those things as "prophecy.

Gilgamesh

That's the exact impression I got, too.

"Parables and narratives" are no longer considered to be prophetic pictures or prophetic dramas. (That leaves prophecies.) I think a lot of JWs thought that the March 15, 2015 Watchtower was going to remove a lot more of the "silly" teachings, but most of them are still available through an interpretation of prophecy that usually continues to focus on events from 1918 through 1922, with a few apocalyptic plagues that manage to reach another decade or two past that period.

The vulnerability of the parable of the "Faithful and the Unfaithful Slave" is being accidentally highlighted in this week's Watchtower study at the Kingdom Hall. The "Ten Virgins" is no longer considered a prophetic parable, and yet (Matthew 24 & 25) it is immediately adjacent to the parable of the "Faithful and the Unfaithful Slave" (a.k.a. "Faithful and Discreet Slave" in WT-speak, because they only want to focus on Governing Body now.) Also, Luke's corrolary version of the "Ten Virgins" parable, which is the one about the "Servants Who Keep Their Lamps Lit While the Master is Delaying from Returning from the Marriage Ceremony" is also immediately adjacent to the parable of the "Faithful and the Unfaithful Steward" in Luke 12.

Why would one be a prophetic parable and the other be non-prophetic parable?

Daniel's isn't quite as vulnerable, and the Watchtower has already stated explicitly is that one of the reasons for treating it as a prophecy is because it's in a prophetic book about the kingdom which is also clearly a book that is looked to for time prophecies about the kngdom. Of course, Daniel also contains the non-prophetic Lion's Den narrative, and the tree dream is immediately adjacent to the non-prophetic dramatic narrative about the three Hebrews thrown into the fiery furnace, which has been given no prophetic fulfillments since the 1930's and 40's, outside of a more general statements of parallels and foreshadowings as in the 1943 Watchtower about how now that "Jesus has come to the temple for judgment [1918], and he is with the approved ones and their companions in the firery furnace."

Nothing much has been made of the Daniel "furnace" narrative since 1949. Although back in 1934, Rutherford published an explanation of the fulfillment of the Daniel 3 fiery furnace "crucible" that spanned two Watchtower issues, and even went so far as to make a separate application to the various instruments of the music that played when the 3 Hebrews didn't bow down, including: "the League of Nations multitioned horn, the Disarmament cornet, the Economic Monetary Conference flute, the New Deal harp. . ."

The "Tree Dream" is "prophetic" but, of course, the fulfillment is also given, and it's all about Nebuchadnezzar.

In 1942 the Watchtower explicitly said "Nebuchadnezzar was as type of Jesus Christ" and there is a glimpse of this on the Watchtower Library CD:

*** w50 11/15 p. 444 par. 17 Subjection to the Higher Powers ***
In this capacity Nebuchadnezzar was a type of Jesus Christ. God uses Christ as his executioner of vengeance against Jerusalem’s modern counterpart, Christendom, and God also gives him the domination over all the nations of this world before destroying them at the battle of Armageddon.

This idea of Nebuchadnezzar as a "type of Jesus" has come up again in studies of Jeremiah, but it was also dismissed in 1979. I vaguely remember a public talk outline that still had it after 1979, but I think that officially the Watchtower doesn't like to use that phrase any more.

*** w79 9/15 p. 23 par. 8 The “Cup” That All Nations Must Drink at God’s Hand ***
This does not mean, however, that Nebuchadnezzar was a type of Jesus Christ, who worshiped Jehovah alone as God.

I think the Watchtower realizes that the old focus on "Nebuchadnezzar=Jesus" is embarrassing in that it also swaps the Jewish and Gentile "types" in the picture of Daniel 4's Kingdom that was dormant until the Gentile Times ended. In the tree dream it's a Gentile king dormant when the Gentile's Kingdom comes back after 7 times of being humiliated, and in the supposed fulfillment it's the Jewish/Messianic Kingdom that comes back after 7 times of being dormant.

17

Why only 7 or 8 members on the Governing Body?

by Gilgamesh in

now and then someone hears a rumor that the gb might go with 12 members instead of the 8 (or now 7) they currently have.

the value of 12 is understandable, which might even drive the rumors every time they plan to add another 4 or 5 new persons to the gb helpers list.

of course, a rumor that steals their thunder may also promote a delay, even if true.. i'm sure this quote from the watchtower was previously commented upon as a good explanation for the watch tower's best reason to leave the number at 7 or 8:.

Gilgamesh

Yep. About 250 BC, can't be older than 300 BC. Originally in Hebrew. Included as if canonical in all oldest major Greek Bible manuscripts (Alexandrinus, Sanaiaticus, Vaticanus) also in Syriac, also in Hebrew Dead Sea Scrolls and Masada Scrolls. "New Jerusalem Bible" is the one I copied the translation from and there it also mentions that it was referred/quoted/borrowed in James and Matthew in the NT. Also called Sirach.

17

Why only 7 or 8 members on the Governing Body?

by Gilgamesh in

now and then someone hears a rumor that the gb might go with 12 members instead of the 8 (or now 7) they currently have.

the value of 12 is understandable, which might even drive the rumors every time they plan to add another 4 or 5 new persons to the gb helpers list.

of course, a rumor that steals their thunder may also promote a delay, even if true.. i'm sure this quote from the watchtower was previously commented upon as a good explanation for the watch tower's best reason to leave the number at 7 or 8:.

Gilgamesh

Half banana,

So right!!

*** w11 8/15 p. 22 Questions From Readers ***
. A number of factors—including past religious beliefs or even mental or emotional imbalance—might cause some to assume mistakenly that they have the heavenly calling.

I remember how they kept claiming the "real" number was dwindling, when it was so obvious that the reported number of partakers always keeps going up. Might be funny if it went to 145,000 in a couple decades.

"ENOUGH ALREADY!!!

"STOP doing this in remembrance of me!"

Gilgamesh

Posts by Gilgamesh

100 Years Ago: July 1915 – Going to war was still OK

100 Years Ago: Presidential Debates – Watchtower Style