Posts by donkey

106

How do I know the Bible is True?

by SwedishChef in

how do i know the bible is true?

by thomas schaff.

external evidence.

donkey

The great cop out:

I have never said there is absolute proof of the Bible being right. But I can say that the Bible has never been proven wrong, archeological and historical studies have only affirmed its accuracy, and there is a wealth of unsurpassed depth within these pages

You have provided ZERO in the way of the proof you said you would, SC. Is that to be taken as a lie. We know what the good book says about liars don't we? (John 8:44). It is OK to say you don't know the answers. It is OK to admit you are a human on a growth curve like the rest of us. Please be like me and admit there are NO absolutes - if there were you could readily offer evidence as proof. Are you willing to admit you MIGHT be wrong if you cannot provide proof? I am willing to admit I am wrong if I cannot support my claims.

The problem with your parochialist vantage point is that "the Bible is never wrong - only our intperetation". But you have no logical basis for the foundation of the argument. Can you not even concede that there is a distinct possibility that the Bible is wrong? All things are possible to me - including that the Bible might be correct - we just need to provide evidence to support our claims.

Jack

Edited by - donkey on 1 January 2003 2:4:0

22

Good Cop bad cop

by donkey in

introducing god and satan.

do god and satan work on the same team?

are you shocked at such a suggestion?

donkey

So let me see if I have this straight then (Donkey's struggle with things like this).

Both God and the Devil created hell? Is that what you are saying Yizu? Before you launched into the sermon on completely unrelated stuff...

I am going to ignore the stuff all about my choices etc. That is not the subbject of my thread. The fact is that there are bad people, if judged in line with scripture - correct? They go to hell? Who runs hell? God or Satan?

Those are simple questions - not opportunities for you to preach about love. If you cannot answer the basic questions then we will simply assume that you don't know or refuse to try to figure out the answers.

Most of the Christians I have encountered focused on simple doctrines such as what happens the good dudes and what happens to the bad dudes. I am still at the simple stage. I cannot accept the love of someone I do not understand. I am trying to understand the way things are in the Christian world - everytime I ask a question I run into a wall of "huh?" If your simple dogma is correct then surely you know the answers to the questions I am asking.

You say there is a heaven and a hell. I say fine - who is running the show. You say God is love. Do you see the incoherence? I am not picking on you Yizu - I have this same thing happen to me time after time with Christians. They claim to know their own teachings but they refuse to explain them.

Jack

22

Good Cop bad cop

by donkey in

introducing god and satan.

do god and satan work on the same team?

are you shocked at such a suggestion?

donkey

Introducing God and Satan.

Do God and Satan work on the same team? Are you shocked at such a suggestion? Well consider this:

God's friends go to heaven to be rewarded by God. God's enemies go to hell to be punished by Satan.

Now if Satan was an enemy of God why would he work on behalf of God and punish God's enemies? Why does he make it easy for God?

Who created hell? Was it God? "OH NO!! It was created by Satan", you say. Well then could Satan close it down? Could he hang up a "No Vacancy" sign? Where would God send all the bad guys then? If on the other hand God created hell then we have a whole different set of problems on our hands don't we? WHY did he do that? was it always his intent to burn people for ever? Was it his intent for Satan to become the bad cop and run his oven for him, roasting his enemies to all eternity?

I guess it is all in the name of Love (1 John 4:8).

Jack the Reaper

Edited by - donkey on 31 December 2002 18:20:53

38

Tolerance

by Xena in

jw
friends

you know most of us spend a large part of our lives in a religion that allowed for no independant thinking.

we were taught and taught others that ours was the only way and anyone who thought differently was going to be judged unworthy and die.

anyone who presumed to think outside the box was branded "apostate" or not good association.

donkey

donkey, I think some people have a hard time understanding the difference between attacking ideas and not people and sometimes it isn't always easy to attack the idea and not the individual since people tend to so closely relate to their beliefs. Like walking thru a minefield sometimes isn't it?

It is big issue for some. Some of us are closely attached to our ideas. Some of us EQUAL the sum of our ideas and for those their ideas are more apart of them. We all have collective groupings of ideas - that is what makes each of us intellectually unique. People who are attached to their ideas tend to be believers rather than searchers. A believer by having their belief invalidated is akin to having their very reason for existence invalidated. That's a strong statement but please think about it. We all hear about change and how we need to be adaptable. Most people think they are adaptable - unfortunately that's not true. If it was they would not feel threatened when their beliefs or ideas are challenged. They would welcome the opportunity to learn and experience something new.

If we cannot change our ideas then we risk living a lie. Living and believing a lie makes us very vulnerable to disappointment and when we discover it we lose our purpose to live. Many have killed themselves over this. Searchers always leave the possibility of having their ideas falsified on the table. They know that in life there are no absolutes and they live life to savor life itself. Ideas sould be enhancements not constraints; they should be tested to become strong - not hidden and protected.

For those who come here merely for support - that's fine. Hopefully they can understand that if they don't want to have their ideals hurt they should not cast them in the ring. Others are searching for truth or clarity or new ways of thinking - only by leaving the shore of comfort can we find new horizons.

106

How do I know the Bible is True?

by SwedishChef in

how do i know the bible is true?

by thomas schaff.

external evidence.

donkey

SC,

I am still waiting for the promised evidence. You offered up Josephus. Care to elaborate on the evidence...let's be specific and detailed. Please do not quote scripture - because that proves nothing to anyone, unless the said scripture can be corroborated by clear outside evidence.

You asked me specific things I answered. I am willing to answer specific points but if we are to settle this once and for all then surely you need to provide evidence of your claims. Your claims are on trial for all to see. Without evidence what do you think the verdict will be?

Jack

106

How do I know the Bible is True?

by SwedishChef in

how do i know the bible is true?

by thomas schaff.

external evidence.

donkey

For years the WT has pointed to Josephus, Pliny, Tertullian and others to prove that their were independent witnesses to Biblical events in Jesus day. When you say that "Josephus, an independent historian (a secular historian) wrote about Jesus. This proves that Jesus was a real person" it all sounds so cozy.

Problem is when you look at what Josephus wrote - you start saying "where is the evidence". Further, when you read the words he wrote - you have no correlation between the magnificence of Jesus as recorded in the Bible, but instead are shown only a glimpse into the slightest possibility that someone name Jesus existed. You are not provided with one shred of evidence to corroborate the miracles Jesus performed, the influence he held over the people, the unexplainable events from the perspective of the Roman guards, the death and resurrection of Jesus, the darkness and the ripping of the curtain in the temple. There is absolutely zero independent corroboration of a resurrection of someone named Jesus.

We know that Rome was the world power in Jesus day. We know that surrounding nations were also influential such as the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Jews themselves. Why weren't they moved to write about him? If he was as powerful as Christians claim surely there would be OVERWHELMING evidence to that effect! But what is there instead? Sadly there is no evidence. Sadly, we know that the first 3 centuries were filled with less than honorable scribes, we know that during the middle ages people were burned and tortured by the church. Do we trust these as credible custodians of the word of God to hand it down till our day?

In virtually none of the MAJOR events such as the freeing of the Jews from Israel or the life, times and resurrection of Jesus is there one shred of credible independent evidence to be found.

People scoff (I am one of them) at the claims that aliens came down to the earth in 1973 and visited Rael (Claude Vorilhon) to inform him of their teachings. Why? Because there is no evidence. It is absurd. So why aren't the same standards of evidence required of Christian claims? Because of long established mythologic traditions. If something is done a certain way or something is believed as fact for long enough then it becomes accepted. Gradualization will do that. As people investing all your dreams, money, time and effort into something don't you at least owe it to yourselves to have some evidence to guide you in your choices?

Jack

106

How do I know the Bible is True?

by SwedishChef in

how do i know the bible is true?

by thomas schaff.

external evidence.

donkey

Sure I have heard of Josephus. Who was he?

Schoalrs have asserted that the contemporary Jewish General and historian Flavius Josephus is, in fact, Arius Calpurnius Piso. So do we rely on the testimony of one whose own honesty and existence are in question to prove the existence of another?

Josephus was born when? AD37
When did Jesus die? AD33

Josephus in all his writings made possible reference to Jesus how many times? Twice

The first one - the most extensive one - has been widely accepted even by Christian scholars to be a forgery penned after Jospehus' death. The second one:

"But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper and very insolent; he was also of the sect of Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all of the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity. Festus was dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the Sanhedrim of judges and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned" (Josephus, Antiquities, Book XX, chap. ix, sec. I).

OK. That's it!! So where is the proof that Jesus was who you claim he is?

If you would like me to post lengthy details on this discussion please let me know and I can do so for you.

Jack

106

How do I know the Bible is True?

by SwedishChef in

how do i know the bible is true?

by thomas schaff.

external evidence.

donkey

Rem,

"Bug" off!!

Swedish Chef,

I asked you to provide the evidence to your claim. Did you ignore me or forget me?

Jack

38

Tolerance

by Xena in

jw
friends

you know most of us spend a large part of our lives in a religion that allowed for no independant thinking.

we were taught and taught others that ours was the only way and anyone who thought differently was going to be judged unworthy and die.

anyone who presumed to think outside the box was branded "apostate" or not good association.

donkey

Are we equal to our beliefs or do our ideas make us?

If so does attacking the ideas of another equate to attacking that individuals person?

That can happen.

However, I strongly advocate attacking ideas. I want my ideas and philosophies to stand for what they are (irrespective of my personal implementation of the ideas). Please attack my ideas - and I reserve the right to attack yours on this board (as long as Simon let's me do so). By the same token I harbor no ill intent to anyone and truly hope that everyone can find their own fulfillment and happiness. Please see my questions and "attacks" for what they are. If I call you stupid slap me. If I call your idea stupid, prove me wrong or ignore me.

Jack

20

Disassociating inactive ones?

by madison149 in

jw
friends

a few days ago someone wrote about a new rule that came out in elders school this summer about inactive ones still being accountable to jehovah's (watchtower) rules.

does this mean that they are going to start disassociating ones who have been inactive for years who are not upholding the rules?

i know of a few people who have not attended meeting in several years who either celebrate holidays or in other ways break the rules and everybody knows it.

donkey

They have a new trick.

Elder: "Do you still consider yourself to be a Jehovah's Witness?"

Inactive: "No.."

Elder: "In that case you are disassociated."

By answering NO to the question they will use it against you. Never answer NO. Evade it with something like "Well, I still live by my Bible Trained Conscience (TM)".

Jack