Posts by Oubliette

56

What made you turn atheist or agnostic?

by LevelThePlayingField in

if you were a jw and are now an atheist or agnostic, what was the tipping point that made you turn to it?.

the reason i ask is i have noticed that many who leave the jw's seem to turn to atheism, versus still having some form of a faith.

have many of you given up on god first or have you had atheistic views first and then found atheism to be true.

Oubliette

done4good: I am a big fan of Sagan, but he is just plain wrong here. He does atheism an incredible disservice with this statement.

I believe you are making the same mistake that Landy made in reading the two Sagan quotes I posted. Please see my comments to him above.

d4g: Atheism concerning belief in a desert god is no different than non-belief in the Easter Bunny.

Yes, but that's not the context of the Sagan quote you commented on.

His first quote is addressing the desert god of the Old Testament, the second one is addressing the possibility of a "creator/god" that is now uninvolved, indifferent and unknowable, aka the "god" of deism.

You also seem to have ignored my comments introducing each quote. His quotes are explanatory of MY statements and not the other way around.

BTW, I did not post his quotes as "an appeal to authority" (which are not, incidentally, fallacious in the way I presented them).

I just like the way he said worded his arguments, very eloquent and clear. Forget WHO said it and consider the logic of the statements. They stand on their own.

Perhaps I should have given more context.

56

What made you turn atheist or agnostic?

by LevelThePlayingField in

if you were a jw and are now an atheist or agnostic, what was the tipping point that made you turn to it?.

the reason i ask is i have noticed that many who leave the jw's seem to turn to atheism, versus still having some form of a faith.

have many of you given up on god first or have you had atheistic views first and then found atheism to be true.

Oubliette

Landy: So in one statement sagan says a belief in a theist god is ludicrous then the next one goes on to say 'well, we can't prove it's not there'??

Not so. Sagan is addressing the idea of the god of the Abrahamic religions in the first quote. This is what he calls ludicrous.

In the second statement he is addressing the idea that there could be some other kind of "god," an impersonal being more akin to the detached, indifferent god of deism. It is impossible to say such a being does not exist.

How does one disprove the hypothetical existence of null space?

There is no contradiction as he is discussing two very different conceptions of "god" and the subsequent likelihood of their existence based on an examination of available evidence. In the first instance, there is no tangible evidence proving the existence of the desert god of the OT and plenty of evidence against that belief. In the second instance, there is--by definition--no definitive evidence either way, nor is there likely to be with the available tools we have at present. There is the possibility that may change in the future, but it is only a speculative possibility.

29

Latest, SHOCKING JW Paedophile case.

by Phizzy in

http://www.stratford-herald.com/45973-jehovahs-witness-jail...

Oubliette

Wow, very disturbing indeed.

And again, the congregation's covering-up the matter is part of a systemic, institutional pattern in this religion.

The GB's failure to deal with this problem, or to even ackknowledge it, is disturbing in the extreme.

It's been said before but bears repeating: When accusations against the Roman Catholic Church began to receive wide publicity in the late 1980s, we JWs would point to that and say, "See, there's proof that they are a false religion, part of 'Satan's system.'"

Now the proverbial shoe is on the other foot.

There is no way to word it strongly enough. The culpability of the WT leaders, past and present, is criminal. They need to be held accountable.

Let's review: It's a cult, a cult with criminal leaders!

31

Request for Research Help: WTS Views on Intersex Individuals

by Oubliette in

request for research help: .

several recent threads have gotten me started on an essay and i need some research help.

does anyone have access to anything the wt has ever published on intersex people (they might have used the now-outdated term: hermaphrodite)?

Oubliette

Anders,

I wasn't actually expecting that I would be able to interview her, I was just musing that it would be really informative and interesting to interview her and learn more about her experience if I could.

As I wrote on the previous page, a few quick calculations show that there should be thousands of such individuals in the organization, tens of thousands over the last century!

15

Need advice on fade...

by StarTrekAngel in

the elder that was the coordinator of the boe has just left town to attend one of those infamous schools with this wife.

the view is that he will most likely return to be appointed co. not sure he is going to stick around here for a lot longer.. i am saying this because, despite them knowing he will return when the school is over, they removed him from the coordinator position and appointed someone else.

it was announced last night that the biggest jerk of the group of elders is now the coordinator of the boe.

Oubliette

Doing nothing is probably your best play. You're not necessarily even on his radar. Why doing anything to remind them you exist.

I know it can be hard on the ego, but "out of sight, out of mind."

21

Pictures in the Watchtower

by Sour Grapes in

jw
friends

after sitting through last sunday's watchtower i got so sick of seeing the bobbing/nodding heads when talking about the pictures.

they act like god himself took the picture.

there must have been 10 comments about the group in service and the one brother was looking at his phone with a smile, which is a dead give away that he was reading something interesting.. what got me was how the older brother in the posed picture had a bible in his hand had a stern look on his face looking at the young brother.

Oubliette

Those pictures are powerful pieces of propaganda, especially when we consider the way JWs are trained to interpret and discuss them at meetings (as many of the above comments observed).

Although they are academically only one step up from a "Where's Waldo" picture, the way the congregation members will dissect them looking for "hidden meanings" (which are generally painfully obvious) in ways that of course only reinforce and confirm their existing beliefs is remarkable.

It's actually a very informative, if not also somewhat frightening, lesson in the power of manipulation: Cult Manipulation Tactics 101.

Let's review: It's a cult!

31

Request for Research Help: WTS Views on Intersex Individuals

by Oubliette in

request for research help: .

several recent threads have gotten me started on an essay and i need some research help.

does anyone have access to anything the wt has ever published on intersex people (they might have used the now-outdated term: hermaphrodite)?

Oubliette

Rub a Dub,

Then drink up!

Oubliette

31

Request for Research Help: WTS Views on Intersex Individuals

by Oubliette in

request for research help: .

several recent threads have gotten me started on an essay and i need some research help.

does anyone have access to anything the wt has ever published on intersex people (they might have used the now-outdated term: hermaphrodite)?

Oubliette

RubaDub, yeah the WT Leaders are just about that crazy, but I'm actually trying to take a serious look at this issue.

Mans while poking fun at the lunacy of the Borg is also one of my pastimes, it would be good to show some sensitivity to the people that already have enough to deal with without the WT's ridiculous policies

If you have some actual references to contribute, that would be great!

56

What made you turn atheist or agnostic?

by LevelThePlayingField in

if you were a jw and are now an atheist or agnostic, what was the tipping point that made you turn to it?.

the reason i ask is i have noticed that many who leave the jw's seem to turn to atheism, versus still having some form of a faith.

have many of you given up on god first or have you had atheistic views first and then found atheism to be true.

Oubliette

Slightly longer answer: JWs convinced me all other religions were false. Then, after being an elder for a dozen years, it became painfully obvious that my religion was also false.

So now they are all false.

The only question left was this: if all religions are false, is there any evidence at all that God exists?

I spent a few years re-examining all of my beliefs, this time without being committed to any particular belief system. That sure made it easier. It actually didn't take very long to come to the obvious conclusion: The evidence is overwhelming that none of the gods that humans have ever worshipped exist, in particular that desert god of the Old Testament.

I'm fond of, and in complete agreement with, Carl Sagan's assessment of the situation:

The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying ... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity.

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This does not, however, make me an atheist. As far as I'm concerned, claiming that there is no God is almost as irrational as claiming there is one. Again, I'll share a succinct comment from Sagan on that point as well:

An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed. - Conversations with Carl Sagan (2006), edited by Tom Head, p. 70

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40

Boredom at the Kingdom Hall meetings

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

put aside all the stupid rules,beliefs,doctrines and practices of the jehovah's witnesses.this is one of the main reasons why i stopped attending all meetings!

boredom.

monotone speakers.

Oubliette

And each and every meeting somehow "the best one yet!"