Posts by Oubliette

56

What made you turn atheist or agnostic?

by LevelThePlayingField in

if you were a jw and are now an atheist or agnostic, what was the tipping point that made you turn to it?.

the reason i ask is i have noticed that many who leave the jw's seem to turn to atheism, versus still having some form of a faith.

have many of you given up on god first or have you had atheistic views first and then found atheism to be true.

Oubliette

Cofty: There is an inherent problem in defining atheism. You have to start by agreeing on an approximate definition of god.

Those are really good points!

This is why I say: God of the Bible? No. And not just, "No," but "Hell no!"

But how about those that posit some distant, now uninvolved and unknowable "creator" type in the past (reads a lot like the "god of the gaps," doesn't it?) that made all things and then has been evidently completely absent from the human experience in any discernible way?

What can I say? Could be. I suppose it's possible, although there's no evidence for this hypothetical god which has been carefully defined in just such a way as to positively preclude definitely denying its existence.

Other than a mental exercise, this particular "god" has no benefit or use as, by definition, it is not involved in human affairs, or in any other aspect of the running of the universe in any detectable way.

56

What made you turn atheist or agnostic?

by LevelThePlayingField in

if you were a jw and are now an atheist or agnostic, what was the tipping point that made you turn to it?.

the reason i ask is i have noticed that many who leave the jw's seem to turn to atheism, versus still having some form of a faith.

have many of you given up on god first or have you had atheistic views first and then found atheism to be true.

Oubliette

d4g: I can assure you I was not ignoring what you were saying

That's good to know, but of course there was no way for me to know that before as your previous comments were only about the Sagan quotes I used and completely ignored my comments, which--as I said earlier--his quotes are explanatory of MY statements and not the other way around.

56

What made you turn atheist or agnostic?

by LevelThePlayingField in

if you were a jw and are now an atheist or agnostic, what was the tipping point that made you turn to it?.

the reason i ask is i have noticed that many who leave the jw's seem to turn to atheism, versus still having some form of a faith.

have many of you given up on god first or have you had atheistic views first and then found atheism to be true.

Oubliette

d4g: Sagan chooses to define modern atheism as something it is not, (as refusal to accept the possibility of a god or superior power), rather than simple non-belief.

Thank you for taking a minute to respond.

I disagree that Sagan was trying to define "atheism" as having only one meaning. In fact, I think the fact that he discussed the term in a variety of ways is evidence that he understood people do not always mean the same thing when they use it or related terms.

d4g: Sagan's statement that atheism is "certainty that god does not exist", is a misrepresentation of atheism as understood by modern definition.

According to whom?

In spite of the efforts of some individuals or groups to try and redefine what any particular word does or does not mean, it just doesn't work that way. The meaning of words are defined by popular usage. To put it simply, when it comes to defining the meaning of words: the lunatics are running the asylum and they are in control of the dictionaries.

I'll go with dictionaries that take a descriptivist (rather than a proscriptivist) view of word usage and their meaning(s). For example:

American Heritage Dictionary: Atheism - n. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.

Merriam Webster's: Atheism - a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

You'll note that both of these dictionaries recognize a range of meanings for "atheism," meanings which include your limited definition of the word, but also more than "simple non-belief."

Failure to acknowledge that this varied usage is how this term is actually used in common speech and popular discourse by average people is to deny reality. This is how I understand Sagan's comment and probably why he clarified what he meant.

This is also why I always clarify what I mean: I do not believe in any god at all, but I also think it is irrational to positively assert that no god exists and that this can be known with any certainty.

What other people think and/or believe is obviously all over the map. They should take the time to examine the evidence, think the issues through and learn to clearly articulate their beliefs without trying to simplify it into a single word, which essentially is its own kind of dogma. Propagandists of every ilk try to simplify complex issues into short, easy-to-remember slogans.

I'm sure you've noticed that I'm against that kind of thing.

d4g: A higher power could be many things.... They are merely possibilities that can be acknowledged.

Agreed.

32

No Soliciting signage and JW Policy

by Oubliette in

does anyone have a copy of the boe letter directing publishers to not go into apartment complexes and/or condominium complexes with no soliciting signs?

i ask because yesterday and buttheaded jw (that obviously had no idea who i am or my past) was knocking on doors in our condo complex.

he would have had to drive past a sign which clearly states "no solicitation or material distribution.".

Oubliette

JeffT, that's funny, but again inappropriate for a HOA and not particulary applicable to the situation I posted in the OP.

32

No Soliciting signage and JW Policy

by Oubliette in

does anyone have a copy of the boe letter directing publishers to not go into apartment complexes and/or condominium complexes with no soliciting signs?

i ask because yesterday and buttheaded jw (that obviously had no idea who i am or my past) was knocking on doors in our condo complex.

he would have had to drive past a sign which clearly states "no solicitation or material distribution.".

Oubliette

Funny as always Outlaw, and so true.

This particular JW didn't flash a bizcard, but he was sporting his shiny, new blue JW.ORG button.

What a joke!

5

Harvesting of cash

by Nicholaus Kopernicus in

in the wt handbill/invitation coloured brown, it clearly states "no collections" on the left and right sides of one of the pages.

however, on the newer and replacement handbill/invitation coloured blue/gray, reference to there being no collections is entirely absent.

i'm not sure if this is because of the present cash harvest or a sign that something even more direct may be under consideration at some time in the future.

Oubliette

Good catch. We do know it wasn't an oversight or mistake.

Watch this space!

32

No Soliciting signage and JW Policy

by Oubliette in

does anyone have a copy of the boe letter directing publishers to not go into apartment complexes and/or condominium complexes with no soliciting signs?

i ask because yesterday and buttheaded jw (that obviously had no idea who i am or my past) was knocking on doors in our condo complex.

he would have had to drive past a sign which clearly states "no solicitation or material distribution.".

Oubliette

Sparrow down and Rebelfighter, your comments work for individuals.

My situation is for a condominium complex of over 250 homes; it's also private property unlike the sidewalks leading up to most homes JWs frequent.

32

No Soliciting signage and JW Policy

by Oubliette in

does anyone have a copy of the boe letter directing publishers to not go into apartment complexes and/or condominium complexes with no soliciting signs?

i ask because yesterday and buttheaded jw (that obviously had no idea who i am or my past) was knocking on doors in our condo complex.

he would have had to drive past a sign which clearly states "no solicitation or material distribution.".

Oubliette

Pete, I didn't get angry! I was adamant, especially when he started to argue the point.

32

No Soliciting signage and JW Policy

by Oubliette in

does anyone have a copy of the boe letter directing publishers to not go into apartment complexes and/or condominium complexes with no soliciting signs?

i ask because yesterday and buttheaded jw (that obviously had no idea who i am or my past) was knocking on doors in our condo complex.

he would have had to drive past a sign which clearly states "no solicitation or material distribution.".

Oubliette

Our condo complex is private property so a No Soliciting sign DOES apply.

About ten years ago I was on the other side of this debate with a property manager in a similar complex in the same municipality. The manager asked me to leave pointing to the "No Soliciting" sign which we were standing in front of.

I, being the typical pig-headed, self-righteous elder that I was, insisted that this did not apply to us. So, while the property manager stood there fuming, I called the police department.

The dispatcher informed me that I was wrong, and that if I did not leave post with they would be there shortly to arrest me.

Discretion being the better part of valor, I decided to leave.

Later, I shared the incident with my fellow elders. As I recall, we called Bethel, read the relevant "direction" from the Society and discovered that the police and the property manager were right and we were wrong.

It's nice to be not the other side of the door for a change!

32

No Soliciting signage and JW Policy

by Oubliette in

does anyone have a copy of the boe letter directing publishers to not go into apartment complexes and/or condominium complexes with no soliciting signs?

i ask because yesterday and buttheaded jw (that obviously had no idea who i am or my past) was knocking on doors in our condo complex.

he would have had to drive past a sign which clearly states "no solicitation or material distribution.".

Oubliette

Does anyone have a copy of the BOE letter directing publishers to NOT go into apartment complexes and/or condominium complexes with No Soliciting signs?

I ask because yesterday and buttheaded JW (that obviously had no idea who I am or my past) was knocking on doors in our condo complex. He would have had to drive past a sign which clearly states "No Solicitation or Material Distribution."

When I politely asked him to leave because of this policy he responded, "I'm not soliciting. I'm a volunteer." (As if the two have anything to do with each other.

When I suggested we call the police and he could explain it to them he said, "It's ok. I'll go."

To which I responded, "Oh, so you DO know!"

I want to have our HOA send a letter to the local congregation and it might be nice to cite their own rules and regulations to the elders. (This particular body of elders are all real company men).

Thanks in advance.