Hi Nicolas,
I understand it pretty well, But my speech leaves a lot to be desired! My family resides in Quebec (1/2 French 1/2 English).
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Any french people here???
by Nicolas inhi, i'd just like to know if there's some people who talk in french here??
i'm from quebec and sometime, i feel alone althought it's not as hard as it was last year because i have some new wordly friends.... bonjour, j'aimerais savoir si certaine personnes qui parlent en francais viennent ici??
j'habite au quebec et parfois, je me sens seul malgre que c'est moins pire que l'an passe parce que maintenant, j'ai quelque amis qui eux-aussi font partie du monde mechant ;-)edited by - nicolas on 30 november 2002 2:4:38.
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Simon said,(referring to Jewish discussion)
by cookie inin another thread simon said: .
".....but there is a correct and rational way to discuss and debate this " .
so can we please discuss this.. collectively, there is a lot of insight on this board,and aside from the negativity that was generated,this topic had many facets that were of great interest.
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MUM:
Good suggestions
After leaving the WT, I had a tremendous void and I did feel that I could get something from the Jewish community, that is when I had my first visit to a Yeshiva.
I then responded to an article in the paper that spoke of the importance of Shabat(?) it is an all night gathering and it is supposed to be very important, so I inquired about it and we went. (stayed until until 5:30 in the next morning)
It was comical ,because while we were in synagogue ,no one knew that we were not Jewish, but afterwards we were all invited into another room,and having been to meetings for so many years, I did what came naturally and took out my notebook and pen ,but it gave us away!
During break, one of the women approached us and TOLD us that we were not Jewish and she knew it. ! On Shabat, you don't drive in a car and you don't take notes!
Oh God!Just like the Kingdom Hall they have those kind of ladies too! LOL
During this intermission, I did converse with one of the older men(not a rabbi). He was a GYN by profession but he appeared to be one of the leaders.I am sorry to say that I was very disappointed in his answers to me.
When we left, we both felt we had just been to something very similar to the Kingdom Hall.
So I searched books instead. I read one quote of Elie Weisel. It was THE turning point in my WT exit.
He wrote: (Paraprasing) 'When you meet your maker, he's not going to ask you 'Why didn't you become famous ?Why didn't you change the world,? or Why didn't you become the Messiah?
He's going to ask, Why didn't you become you? The only person in the world who had the potential to become you?"
The man reached me and I have had a special fondness for him ever since.
Man's Search for Meaning sounds like something I might really benefit from, Mum
I sincerely thank you for mentioning it.
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Simon said,(referring to Jewish discussion)
by cookie inin another thread simon said: .
".....but there is a correct and rational way to discuss and debate this " .
so can we please discuss this.. collectively, there is a lot of insight on this board,and aside from the negativity that was generated,this topic had many facets that were of great interest.
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Craig, thanks for answering.
you wrote:
There are several partial answers: the merits of their ancestors, chiefly Abraham, who accepted the One God and broke with idolatry; their comparative virtue; their humility and their faithfulness. The first reason, the argument based on the merit of Abraham, recurs everywhere in Jewish literature, and especially in the liturgy."
So whether we view the story as literal or not are we looking at spiritual qualities (ie.humility and faithfulness)? as indicated above?
or the physical component as indicated by what you wrote below:
"From this I would conclude that the writers of the Abrahamic story, or at least the expounders of that story, want to convey exactly the impression that many (most?) non-Jews get...that it ain't what you know, it's who your father was."
Or could both be part of the understanding that we glean from the story:?
That within the loins of Abraham we will find either a Spiritual or Fleshly inclination. One who seeks a higher ground than the dirt beneath one's feet might be willing to yeild some or even all of that dirt to his neighbor if he were humble enough."
I found this statement that you wrote of interest :"Judaism does accept converts."
" They are indeed especially precious to God"
For some reason, it warmed my heart to read that.
Thanks,
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Simon said,(referring to Jewish discussion)
by cookie inin another thread simon said: .
".....but there is a correct and rational way to discuss and debate this " .
so can we please discuss this.. collectively, there is a lot of insight on this board,and aside from the negativity that was generated,this topic had many facets that were of great interest.
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Heathen:
The last thing I would want to do (with any discussion) would be to give
fuel to the Zionist movement.
Frankly, I agree with something that Simon said on another thread:I,too,
feel that there is something more reprehensible about people who
SHOULD KNOW BETTER. And there are many of them that do. But militant
Zionists are obviously not part of the Jewish group that has learned
that lesson.
They have actually looked to Nazi Germany for many of their cues.
(very recently even referring to the warsaw ghetto experience for ideas
of oppression!)
WE hear constantly about how important it is for us 'NEVER to FORGET'
what happened during the Holocaust.
And I am in FULL AGREEMENT with the reasoning behind it. It's only the
oppressor class who benefits by minimizing that atrocity.
We are reminded that the horrors of the Holocaust;must never be forgotten
so that it never occurs again. Yet, What do we find occuring at this very
moment by those who SHOULD KNOW BETTER? We find oppression, persecution,
murder,ghettos,etc;and according to news reports, Israel has even created
a biological weapon that specifically targets Arabs. If we remember the
Holocaust, shouldn't we recognize what's happening in Israel to be nazi
in spirit? There is only one reason for that kind of arsenal. The idea of
Ethnic Cleansing is abhorent to many Jews of conscience,(be it
re-location to Jordan or outright genocide)but obviously not with
the militant Zionists that are no better than a mirror image of
previous nazi oppressors.
Opened eyes,ears, minds, and hearts cannot possibly deny the afinity
between the two. But the evil irony of it all is mind boggling.
No, we should never forget ,lest we miss out on the opportunity
to identify that same ugly spirit wherever and whenever it raises its
head.{Nazism/Zionism: almost an identical anagram in word,but certainlya fraternel twin in spirit}
The subject of Abraham is of great interest to me (on many levels),
including the historical (metaphorical?)animosity beween Isaac and
Ishmael.(both heirs of Abraham) But Sarah's attitude and influence
in all of this intrigues me most.
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Simon said,(referring to Jewish discussion)
by cookie inin another thread simon said: .
".....but there is a correct and rational way to discuss and debate this " .
so can we please discuss this.. collectively, there is a lot of insight on this board,and aside from the negativity that was generated,this topic had many facets that were of great interest.
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Realist:
A few years a go I read a book called. The Original Torah.(written by Jewish scholars[I believe]) It was a fairly small book that I obtained from a yeshivah. And it was one of the first publications to open my mind to the possibility that what was written in the Bible might not have been meant to be literally interpreted. And was certainly not written for outsiders.
It suggested that the "stories'' would have been (by design) interpreted differently to outsiders than to those whom it was meant to instruct. They used some word (memory fails me at the moment) hyponoai or hypokonaia (something like that). Which meant that there was a hidden meaning to the stories that only they would understand. I assumed what they meant by that to be similar to the way Homer is interpreted. On the surface there might be a compelling story, but if you go a little deeper (ie.motives etc.)there's much more to it.
It was also in that book where I first heard of the word Philology. Subsequently, a history professor had explained to our class,that Philology has been of great assistance to historians;and he used the common expression that we often hear today, " No way, Jose!" to prove his point.
He said if we came across some written form that was assumed to be 200 years old , but we found "No way, Jose!" written upon the document, we could conclude that the document written in the 20th century rather than the 18th.
The book,The Original Torah,brought out that the first five books of the Bible could not possibly have been written in the time frame attributed to Moses ,and they used Philology to prove that point. I believe it was in that book where I had first heard of the Hebrew writings having likely been composed in Babylon around 800BC.
I felt sooooo dumb, for having been so gulible in the past.
How could I have taken everything so literally and without question from the WT? I have been away from the Bible for a long time. Couldn't deal with it. But I am ready to look at it in a literary way to see if there is not more to it than a religion presents.
My interest in Abraham is not to dispute whether he lived or not, Francois. My interest is in what the writers of the Abrahamic story wanted to convey.
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GOT VERSE?
by MYOHNSEPH ina current thread got me to thinking about a little poem i wrote many years ago.
i wonder how many other pseudo poets we have here.
if you're one, show us your stuff.
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I Wonder
Ever growing / We note intense hating
Based upon color of skin
Fired up/through the flint of Race baiting
Resulting in true mortal sin
Wheres the store that abounds in compassion?
One stocked with true tolerance
A religion whose love is long lasting
Whose foundation is pure innocence
For aeons Ive looked to the sages
To teach me their faith with its flaws
My mind often locked in their cages
Only able to see what they saw
Always outward Ive looked for my answers
For the experts must know more than I
But Credulity is a cruel prankster
Often leading one into the lie
Muddied waters are no place for wading
Simplicitys the best place to swim
Wheres the river of life that is racing?
Is the kingdom of God within?
Always outward I look for that spirit
A spirit with whom Gods akin
An honest and tolerant pillar
A true forgiver of sin
Will the clouds bring the change were awaiting?
Must we look to the sky in the end?
Is Law and Loves marriage so fading
That we cant find the kingdom within?
If God were not divided
Would we then/be a whole?
Humanity united in a pure unselfish goal
Written
August 18,1999
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Simon said,(referring to Jewish discussion)
by cookie inin another thread simon said: .
".....but there is a correct and rational way to discuss and debate this " .
so can we please discuss this.. collectively, there is a lot of insight on this board,and aside from the negativity that was generated,this topic had many facets that were of great interest.
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In another thread simon said:
".....but there is a correct and rational way to discuss and debate this "
So can we please discuss this.
Collectively, there is a lot of insight on this board,and aside from the negativity that was generated,this topic had many facets that were of great interest.
So if " there is a correct and rational way to discuss and debate this" I would like to see it done.
Did anyone else on this board form any questions or learn something from the whole debate?
I have always been interested in the origin and progression of Abraham's seed; and I have wondered whether he and and his offspring symbolised something more than what we all learned about it.
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Who /what is Abraham
by cookie inwhere are you, abraham ?.
can you be found?.
your faith is needed today.
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Faith: Are You there?
Where are you, Abraham ?
Can you be found?
Your faith is needed today
Passovers near/ Her firstborn is bound
But Sarah pleads for a stay
Father of wanderers where are you, please!
Your children have lost their way
They stand here at Haran /Prized crossroad of all
Yet dont even want to pray
Father of wanderers/what was your strength?
How could you leave your land?
Where did you get the courage and faith
To follow Shaddais command?
Father of wanderers, Friend of God
Faiths price is a high one to pay
You agonized over your own precious son
Yet offered him up in a day
The sons of that son/ And sons of their sons
Need someone to guide the way
Theyre pitted against each other by one
Whose plan is for ALL to flay
A nation was barren/ But this husbands wife
Did finely give birth to a son
Though great pangs were felt/Joy did abound
When land of Israel was born
It cradled democracy/ Cherished its light
A spirit of hope came to life
One day in near future this son newly born
Eliminates all worldly strife
Its thought that when temple /is finely rebuilt
True peace will then be felt
Good thought, but for naught
No wood, nails, or blocks
Will stand in the place of EL
No blood of a lamb/Nor blood of a ram
Could equal the sacrifice grand
A gift of their best is the final test
For the sons of Abraham
Where are you Abraham? Can you be found?
Your faith is needed today
Passovers near/Her firstborns been bound
But Sarah pleads for a stay
Father of wanderers where are you? Please!
Your children have lost their way
They stand here at Haran/ Prized crossroad of all
Yet dont even want to pray
Voice out of Haran/You call for my help
You ask something I cannot give
Ive been to that crossroad/ I offered my son
It was God / Who allowed him to live
You ask of my strength/ You search for my source
Have you no source of your own?
You ask of my courage/ you ask of my faith
To me?
Do they only belong?
Where is this wanderer? Where is Gods friend?
Spread out / As the sands of the sea
Find those who trust solely in Words of God
It is there/ You will find me
Where is this Abraham? Where is he now?
Can he speak to God, and say,
for fifty, for forty, for thirty, for ten..?
A righteous man, LORD will you save?
The cradle is placed/ in the treetop
About to break is its bough
The pinions of eagle/ Are waiting in wings
To break the childs fall
For faith to be faith
One must see the un-seen
With ones head
With ones heart
With ones hand
For faith to be faith , one must see the un-seen
The faith of a true Abraham
He offered the choicest /Of all he had
He did not hold back his hand
Sons of his sons
You face the same test
Isaacs debt /will be met with the land
To the: Son of his sons
With whom law abides
Seen or un-seen
(You) Decide
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Watch Tower Roots:
by blackguard infascist and the church of.
corporate mammon .
"by their fruits shall ye recognize them": this paleo-semitic thinking, is as every bit an axiomatic statement about evidence collection as the hellenic system so pervasive in western society today.
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I don't want to hijack your thread ,Blackguard,but I post this to back up my suggestion that not everyone who is of the same nationality, race, (or even ideology) can be "painted with the same brush"
Israeli draft resisters young people of military age who decline army service on moral and/or political
grounds - are being sentenced to repeated imprisonment in a systematic effort by army authorities to
break their spirits.
As of Nov. 2 4 2002 :
Jonathan Ben-Artzi has been sentenced for the fifth time in a row, to a term of 28 days, making a total
of 126 days in jail .
A Hebrew University student of physics & mathematics, Yoni is a pacifist, and refuses to serve in the
army for reasons of non-violence. He applied to the "conscience committee" for exemption but was
turned down. He then applied to the Supreme Court, which sent him back, for the third time to the
committee. Again, his objections were denied, and he applied again to the Court, but the judges
declined to intervene .
Other draft resisters :
Uri Yaakobi has been sentenced 5 times to a total of 105 days. Uri is one of nearly 300 signatories of the "High School Seniors' Letter", in which youngsters shortly to be conscripted for army service placed Prime Minister Sharon on notice that they would take no part in the oppression of the Palestinian people .
Dror Boimel has received 4 sentences totalling 91 days; Dror too is a signatory of the Seniors' Letter .
Yoni Yehezkiel, yet another signatory, has just received a 4th sentence, bringing him to a total of 84 days .
Haggai Matar has received 2 sentences totalling 42 days. Haggai is among the moving spirits behind the Seniors' Letter .
Each of the above, like other draft resisters expected to face sentencing shortly, is motivated by his own personal beliefs. Whether or not we share their views, we find it intolerable that military courts subject them to this systematic ill-treatment merely because they act on their principles, while the self-same military justice system exhibits boundless leniency towards Israeli settlers in the occupied territories who commit crimes of physical violence against Palestinians, and IDF soldiers who kill or injure innocent civilians .
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Please join our petition belo w - " The Seniors' Letter" 284 signatories
PETITION
We the undersigned :
Protest at the unfair treatment of IDF draft resisters ;
Call for an end to repeat jail sentences on the identical charge ;
Demand the immediate release of all jailed resisters ;
Urge the authorities to make adequate provision for inductees who refuse to enlist on grounds of Principle .
To sign the petition please go to the following link http://www.shministim.org/english_letter.htm/eng_azoma.htm
We plan to publish the petition as a paid advertisement. Contributions should be sent to:
Yesh Gvul PO Box 6953, Jerusalem 91068 Israel
Please specify that the money is for the petition.
Letters of protest can be sent to the addresses in the attached file.
Peretz Kidron ◊ Ram Rahat-Goodman
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Watch Tower Roots:
by blackguard infascist and the church of.
corporate mammon .
"by their fruits shall ye recognize them": this paleo-semitic thinking, is as every bit an axiomatic statement about evidence collection as the hellenic system so pervasive in western society today.
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Blackguard:
After leaving the WT and seeing the similarities with other American made religions,one had to wonder if there was a common thread connecting them in the background. (doctines may have differed, but corporate structure appeared like fraternal septuplets)
The ugly spirit of fascism appears to be raising its head and flaunting its feathers like a proud peacock lately. And from one who had no problem (in the past) believing in an invisible wicked spirit realm,I have no problem with the suspicion that there is something in the background moving this powerful machine center stage. What exactly it is,I don't know. (masonry?perhaps)
I once read somewhere of the priciple of "Indira's Spear" ;and couldn't help but wonder as things progress ,if that principle is not at work with Abraham's seed. (Isaac AND Ishmael)
From what I recall, that principle meant that one entitity (X) creates friction between two other entities (Y and Z). ( X )sits back while (Y&Z) destroy each other. ( X) doesn't have to lift a finger in battle but " wins" when (Y&Z) destroy each other.
( X) can then collect all the spoils.
You mention the injustices perpetrated upon certain Semites, could I ask you where one can find information about this? I am very curious about the subject of ideological fratricide.
If (Y)succeeds in oppressing, pummeling and destroying (Z) then the world will likely turn its attention and prevail against (Y) ; (in theory) (X) wins.
I keep wondering ,who stands to benefit if Abraham's seed is destroyed?
As a side point: the anti-semitism that has resulted from injustices on both sides,is very threatening to the Semites who are not in agreement with all of the carnage. This remnant( that is cut from the same cloth) is the recipient of consequences that are unjustly applied to them.
If I were a Jew or an Arab,it would devastate me to be judged by my militant brothers' conduct. It's for that reason I am uncomfortable with some of the heated rhetoric that has occurred on this board.
There are Jews, right now, who are excercising their conscience by NOT oppressing their Arab cousins ; And there are Arabs who are doing the same.These people are suffering serious consequences as a result. Should they also suffer the consequences of world hatred for something they also despise?
Perhaps it would be best if people separated the nationality from ideology.
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