zound

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Posts by zound

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  79

  The life differences between a good christian and good athiest

  by EndofMysteries in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's compare a christian who goes to a non judgemental / non guilt trip church which focuses really on the gospels, jesus teachings on being non judgemental, anything out of love there is no law against, and they contribute to society.

  then an athiest who if you put side by side w/ the above christian, you would not know any difference unless you asked their beliefs.

  both are good people, who are able to lead lives doing what they want, enjoying their life, and trying to help their neighbors too.

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  zound

  Thanks for the answer.
• 
  79

  The life differences between a good christian and good athiest

  by EndofMysteries in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's compare a christian who goes to a non judgemental / non guilt trip church which focuses really on the gospels, jesus teachings on being non judgemental, anything out of love there is no law against, and they contribute to society.

  then an athiest who if you put side by side w/ the above christian, you would not know any difference unless you asked their beliefs.

  both are good people, who are able to lead lives doing what they want, enjoying their life, and trying to help their neighbors too.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  zound

  Zound it’s the whole package of his death and life that led up to it. It’s the reasons he died and the way he responded and what he stood up for, and critically important is the resurrection after. One simply can’t reduce this down because each aspect plays a part. If someone says they love someone to someone else but never demonstrate it, one would begin to smell a rat and that person on the receiving end will feel unloved. If they feel unloved it is very much the same as feeling not good enough and not feeling good enough is the same as holding oneself as guilty on a deep inner level. In this way sins are forgiven but it’s not legalistic forgiveness. Its indirect forgiveness though love to enable direct self-forgiveness. It’s all about self-empowerment through non selfishness means. The thing with love is that it is hard to pin down. Either people get this or they don’t.

  Thanks.

  I'd still again ask the simple question. If jesus did the other things surrounding his death and resurection - but did not die and was not resurected, instead asked you to simply trust him, and assured you through the pages of the bible that he does love you, even though he did not die for you - forgiving your sins etc is still on the table. All the essential things are present but he just ascended to heaven without the torture and death and resurection...

  Would that make any difference to your faith?
• 
  79

  The life differences between a good christian and good athiest

  by EndofMysteries in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's compare a christian who goes to a non judgemental / non guilt trip church which focuses really on the gospels, jesus teachings on being non judgemental, anything out of love there is no law against, and they contribute to society.

  then an athiest who if you put side by side w/ the above christian, you would not know any difference unless you asked their beliefs.

  both are good people, who are able to lead lives doing what they want, enjoying their life, and trying to help their neighbors too.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  zound

  I still don't get your point Seraphim - and I'd like to pin you down on this, as you said jesus didn't die for your sins.

  We've established that he totally understands what you're going through when faced with death even if he didn't die himself. So no need for him to die in order to console you.

  So please try and tell me the point of his death.

  Jesus may well have known what it was like to die before he did, but I don’t and that’s the point. It wasn’t for him he died it was for others.

  So you don't know what it's like to die, and this is the point - how is jesus death helping you? You can observe the death of millions if this is any help in understanding death.
• 
  79

  The life differences between a good christian and good athiest

  by EndofMysteries in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's compare a christian who goes to a non judgemental / non guilt trip church which focuses really on the gospels, jesus teachings on being non judgemental, anything out of love there is no law against, and they contribute to society.

  then an athiest who if you put side by side w/ the above christian, you would not know any difference unless you asked their beliefs.

  both are good people, who are able to lead lives doing what they want, enjoying their life, and trying to help their neighbors too.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  zound

  Seraphim, do you want me to anser that question or is it rhetorical? In some cases I would put on happy music or a comedy to lift my mood, it depends.

  To be honest, I don't really see your point. I'm surmising then that your anwser is it WOULD make a difference to you if jesus didn't die. If Jesus didn't die he wouldn't be able to condole you as well when you face death of loved ones or death yourself seeing as he didn't experience it himself - his response might be "just get over it"?

  We're talking about a supernatural being here - why can he not know what it's like to die without actually dying?

  Also how is this a fair comparison? Jesus was excecuted - most christians I would hope just die of sickness or old age.

  You don't have to answer these questions - I would however give you a second opportunity to make your point...
• 
  79

  The life differences between a good christian and good athiest

  by EndofMysteries in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's compare a christian who goes to a non judgemental / non guilt trip church which focuses really on the gospels, jesus teachings on being non judgemental, anything out of love there is no law against, and they contribute to society.

  then an athiest who if you put side by side w/ the above christian, you would not know any difference unless you asked their beliefs.

  both are good people, who are able to lead lives doing what they want, enjoying their life, and trying to help their neighbors too.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  zound

  If Jesus wasn't killed - but say just ascended to heaven when he was done with his ministry, and helping people etc as you described - would that make any difference to him inspiring you to forgive yourself etc?
• 
  79

  The life differences between a good christian and good athiest

  by EndofMysteries in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's compare a christian who goes to a non judgemental / non guilt trip church which focuses really on the gospels, jesus teachings on being non judgemental, anything out of love there is no law against, and they contribute to society.

  then an athiest who if you put side by side w/ the above christian, you would not know any difference unless you asked their beliefs.

  both are good people, who are able to lead lives doing what they want, enjoying their life, and trying to help their neighbors too.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  zound

  The reason would be dying for things that promote love. Such things like mercy, honestly, championing the cause of the poor and so on.

  Jesus died because he called himself god. How is that being a martyr for the above mentioned things?
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  19

  Question for believers.

  by zound in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this thread is not to try and prove which position is true or false, but i wanted to ask a question to believers.

  i'll prelude the question with some examples.. jw's think that their message is true and benificial to others - therefore they knock on doors and informal witness etc.

  i think it's safe to say most on this forum agree it is not true and it is in fact harmful (particularly to children) perhaps harmful in ways that the jw is not in a position to appreciate because of his/her warped perspective on things.. on the other hand - if their message was true, and armageddon is coming etc etc, then you could argue that them preaching this stuff is not harmful (actually its morally ambiguous but nevermind that for the time being) because the ends justifies the means - it all comes out in the wash etc.. in turn if mormons message was false then we can agree they are misleading, lying, wasting peoples precious time and lives and ultimately harming children and susceptable people by spreading it.

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  zound

  But what I'm asking is - imagining if that "hope" is not true. The other factors you mentioned can remain.
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  243

  Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist

  by DS211 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  if you could teach me one thing to convince me not to believe what would it be?

  for instance what has the wt taught about evolution/science or mans existence that is wrong and could possibly change skmeones mind?

  and the more important question, why is it a creator couldnt allow for species to evolve?

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  zound

  They ate the dinosaurs silly.
• 
  19

  Question for believers.

  by zound in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this thread is not to try and prove which position is true or false, but i wanted to ask a question to believers.

  i'll prelude the question with some examples.. jw's think that their message is true and benificial to others - therefore they knock on doors and informal witness etc.

  i think it's safe to say most on this forum agree it is not true and it is in fact harmful (particularly to children) perhaps harmful in ways that the jw is not in a position to appreciate because of his/her warped perspective on things.. on the other hand - if their message was true, and armageddon is coming etc etc, then you could argue that them preaching this stuff is not harmful (actually its morally ambiguous but nevermind that for the time being) because the ends justifies the means - it all comes out in the wash etc.. in turn if mormons message was false then we can agree they are misleading, lying, wasting peoples precious time and lives and ultimately harming children and susceptable people by spreading it.

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  2. 
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• 

  zound

  Paul said he didnt care by what motive the gospel was preached but that it was. He also said any one that preaches a gospel other then the one we apostles preach they would be cursed. With that being said if christian religions focused only on the gospel or good news of christ and that hes the messiah etc. we would not have all these problems. Stay with in what is written.

  Okay. So if 'what was written' turned out to be false, would you say that preaching it be harmful?
• 
  19

  Question for believers.

  by zound in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this thread is not to try and prove which position is true or false, but i wanted to ask a question to believers.

  i'll prelude the question with some examples.. jw's think that their message is true and benificial to others - therefore they knock on doors and informal witness etc.

  i think it's safe to say most on this forum agree it is not true and it is in fact harmful (particularly to children) perhaps harmful in ways that the jw is not in a position to appreciate because of his/her warped perspective on things.. on the other hand - if their message was true, and armageddon is coming etc etc, then you could argue that them preaching this stuff is not harmful (actually its morally ambiguous but nevermind that for the time being) because the ends justifies the means - it all comes out in the wash etc.. in turn if mormons message was false then we can agree they are misleading, lying, wasting peoples precious time and lives and ultimately harming children and susceptable people by spreading it.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  zound

  This thread is not to try and prove which position is true or false, but I wanted to ask a question to believers. I'll prelude the question with some examples.

  JW's think that their message is true and benificial to others - therefore they knock on doors and informal witness etc. I think it's safe to say most on this forum agree it is NOT true and it is in fact harmful (particularly to children) Perhaps harmful in ways that the JW is not in a position to appreciate because of his/her warped perspective on things.

  On the other hand - if their message WAS true, and armageddon is coming etc etc, then you could argue that them preaching this stuff is NOT harmful (actually its morally ambiguous but nevermind that for the time being) because the ends justifies the means - it all comes out in the wash etc.

  In turn if Mormons message was false then we can agree they are misleading, lying, wasting peoples precious time and lives and ultimately harming children and susceptable people by spreading it. If Mormons message is true then they are NOT (again morally ambiguous).

  To quote Christopher Hitchens - If jesus was who he said he was, then he was the greatest man who ever lived. If he wasn't, then he was a dangerous madman.

  All the religions and believers of the world are counting on the fact that they have the truth - and that fact alone gives them little hesitation in sharing it with others because it is the TRUTH.

  Coming to the question:

  To believers. Would you agree with the proposition that if the beliefs you teach to others (even if it's very little and informal) are true... then no problem. But if they turn out to be NOT true, do you agree that you are harming people in some way by spreading these mistruths?

  Thankyou. Look forward to your thoughts.