Tec, good points. Love is certainly an interesting one. I remember talking to my dad who is an atheist about his hopes for his kids after he passes on. The question of the rationality of his love and hopes for his kids after he dies came up of course. For my dad death is an absolute end to love. So with good humour I jokingly mentioned the fact that he won’t mind what I do, good or bad, healthy or not so healthy, after he dies because it won’t be relevent to him anymore. It is probably love that give meaning as you say and it probably exists after death I would say as well.
Seraphim23
JoinedPosts by Seraphim23
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
Thanks tenyearsafter. I’m not offended as such; however it’s pointless for me to discuss a topic with an aggressive, rude or sarcastic person. I’m certainly not saying I am right but in order to put forward an argument or a position one has to make points one thinks are valid. Cofty and so on can post all over the thread if they want to, but I don’t have to respond if I feel I’m not getting an honest hearing to start with. I’ll save my energy for those that would like to disagree, debate or agree, without being disagreeable. I. e people telling me to read old posts or heavy use of links of things others have written. I can do that back if I want to but it’s not a discussion at that point but an internet link competition. I want to chat to people in their own words and understandings, not others. Another issue of course is that my post will get picked apart in a nit picking kind of way and diverted away from the main thrust and logic of the post before anyone posts a response to that. If someone wants to tackle the logic of my position I’m all ears, as long as they do it without rudeness.
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
Comatose I get the impression you didn’t read it properly. I never said all atheists don’t enjoy life or even that some don’t enjoy life. They are also beings with inner consciousness. They often, although not always, follow the tenants of humanism to supply meaning to their lives. I don’t think there is a scientifically rational and objective position however that directly proves the existence of that inner world of meaning however. Tell me how right and wrong exists if the end of all life is permanent death and the product of all life is permanent dust? Surly permanent death has more sway than temporary existence which if compared to infinite nothing would mean nothing. Unless nothing doesn’t exist that is!
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
Who said I didn’t know? It’s amusing to me how civil discourse goes out of the window when people don’t like what they read. Perhaps some more constructive and less aggressive posters will come on and comment.
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
Cofty, would you care to define the meaning of troll and the point of a discussion board?
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
If you dont like it you can post on other threads.
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
Cofty you and me will beg to differ if you dont mind.
I prefer discourse with the open minded.
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
I appreciate the comments Phizzy but I did allude to different atheist positions. My dad is an atheist so I am not ignorant of whom they are. Some do have metaphysical belief systems of one form or another as you say. However there is no scientific proof for those by definition just as there isn’t for the reality of the inner subjective world or moral truth. Ideas such as morality and good don’t apply to a materialist only view of reality. Something more is needed to make it a rational position.
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
Trolling?
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
A thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesn’t exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter. Or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail. After all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave? Their eternal state infinitely outweighs the length of time they were alive and so death at any age, or no life at all, is all the same to an infinite degree! Even the cause of death, or amount of suffering entailed in that death, is of complete inconsequence when compared to infinity of oblivion. In fact any life experience, understanding, thoughts, and so on is infinitely nothing when measured against infinity of oblivion.
Obviously if the only truth is described in terms of forces and particles or some such description; concepts like good and bad don’t apply at such a level. If meaning and purpose don’t really exist, nor does good and bad? What meaning and purpose could there be if the only truth to be had is in descriptions of particles and forces, unless truth also applies to a level of reality beyond a mere description of that which makes up the material universe? They say man is more than the sum of his memories, but could it also be that things are more than the sum of their parts? If so what would explain that? Certainly it couldn’t be on the level of particles and forces! Something more is required. It doesn’t have to be God, although it could be, but at a minimum it would require a third element that is not physical in nature but connects to the physical.
Some metaphysical or other type of realm would seem to be necessary to supply meaning to reality in various ways and it would also be part of reality, or at least connect to it in some way. If not, then meaning and morals do not exist and the inner reality of self is only an illusion. If there is no other world apart from the physical one, and in that reality truth is only a description at atomic levels of particles and forces, it follows that anger at God or religious people for believing in a God is pointless and meaningless. The argument that belief in God harms people or causes wars and so on, should not matter at all because truth doesn’t apply to good and bad but only to the description of material at its smallest level.
So an atheist should probably believe in some form of reality that is not physical in nature as well as the one that is, because if they do not, and they want to say religion is bad or untrue, it would be pointless for them to do so because even their own perception and inner reality is not true but an illusion and as pointless as that they would criticise. A rational atheist would take into account general philosophical concerns, not just scientific ones.