I’m not actually making the argument that rocks are intelligent, just to clarify.
Seraphim23
JoinedPosts by Seraphim23
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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Seraphim23
That’s very true jgnat. The lower the level and scale one looks at a brain and a rock, the more the two start looking the same as the complexity content goes down, which could imply that the difference is one of complexity. Of course all things are energy at the lowest level and apparently all energy is the same but then it all gets very strange indeed because all things are not the same as with a brain and rock. Of course if consciousness is that `special` in the universe, then it may still imply animism if it is the brain creating it. How processes, physical laws and so called emergent phenomenon do this is still as much of a mystery as all things starting off as the same energy and then becoming separated into different things after the big bang. It always seems something more is required in order to make the explanations comprehensible and complete.
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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Seraphim23
I said near infinite because a computer is finite in the amount of calculations it can produce and thus in practice it is not infinitely complex because no computer can calculate an infinite amount of numbers/pixels as that would take literally forever.
I used fractals as an example because such geometry mirrors that found in nature in that the patterns look similar at all scales, as is the case of that found in nature. Evolution creates information in a not totally dissimilar way because of the interplay between environment and mutation that builds up useful information on the genetic level over time. With the Mandelbrot set, it can be said that new information is being created just like evolution does, as both use a form of feedback. With evolution the feedback is between the environment and genes and back again over time. With the Mandelbrot set, the feedback is that the output of the equation is used as the input over and over again.
As nature is also governed by a set of mathematical laws and feedbacks occur within that system also, there are going to be parallels between nature and the Mandelbrot set and other similar equations like the Mandelbrot set not surprisingly! However it certainly cannot be said that no new information has been created within the universe since its beginning and there is the mystery I am talking about. Something more than mathematical rules in needed to explain this, as the universe seems to be more than the sum of the mathematics used to describe the laws of physics. 2 and 2 is still adding up to 5 in a sense!
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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Seraphim23
`Emergent phenomenon` is a strange one indeed. As far as I can tell from what I know about this new buzz word, is that it is basically the idea that the whole is more than the sum of its parts. More comes out than would be expected by adding the things together that make it up.
The mathematical Mandelbrot set is an example of this, in that a very simple mathematical equation produces almost infinite complexity when run on a computer. It’s a kind of `emergent property`! In this case the property is complexity but from something very simple without anything obvious added to it to explain why this should be. What is missing in the descriptor ` emergent property` is any explanation of how or why something simple can produce complexity, or perhaps to put it another way, why the same thing is both simple and complex from two points of view? It is very much like adding 2 and 2 together and getting 5 but without asking how and where the extra 1 came from!
Even if consciousness is a product of `Emergent phenomenon`, then this mystery of where the extra 1 comes from would still remain!
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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Seraphim23
Scotoma that is true and a valid point! There is no doubt that when the physical object that is the brain is affected or damaged then there are corresponding effects in what is experienced by the person whose brain it is. What might be less clear however is what is doing the experiencing of those effects? Is it a part of the brain, the whole brain or something apart from the brain? Some think the brain is more like a transceiver, in that it picks up and sends signals which would constitute consciousness as opposed to the brain creating consciousness. If it is the brain creating it though does that mean consciousness is a process itself, or as a product of such a process? How on earth can a process be something more that itself though, or if the process is creating consciousness as though it is a product, what is that product and is it physical?
When people fall asleep it is assumed that consciousness becomes unconsciousness but what does that really mean? The brain state changes for sure, but that doesn’t mean that whatever it is that experiences things is in the brain. Whatever that thing might be, it may only be experiencing the differing brain states while not being in the brain itself. Thus in a sense it may be possible for consciousness to experience unconsciousness. People do dream and experience those dreams while they are having them but have no memory of the dream after they wake. This also doesn’t mean they were not having a conscious experience while the brain was unconscious.
Even more bizarrely it has been noted by hospice staff , nurses and relatives of dying patients a phenomenon that sometimes occurs called `near death lucidity`. Cases of terminal dementia and other brain altering conditions have been seen to seemingly reverse near the end of the patient’s life. So a few hours for example, before so and so dies, they sit up and suddenly recognise and talk to their relatives and loved ones as though their dementia damaged brain were healed and memories restored, despite its destruction long ago. In such cases was it the brain or a signal to the brain that was responsible?
Perhaps the soul doesn`t have a hole in it at all!
What is Truth? loved your post!
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43
Coping with becoming an atheist?
by Crazyguy inits been a very eye opening experience for me to find out that the god of the bible is as real as thor or ra.
i still believe a higher power created life but can see now how it doesn't really care about us.
so with this in mind realizing one has only 70-80 years to live and that may be just it, is very stunning..
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Seraphim23
Sounds like a case of having a cake but not being able to eat it. Have grief but not fear or no grief but fear. Probably means not much advantage over all whatever way round it goes.
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43
Coping with becoming an atheist?
by Crazyguy inits been a very eye opening experience for me to find out that the god of the bible is as real as thor or ra.
i still believe a higher power created life but can see now how it doesn't really care about us.
so with this in mind realizing one has only 70-80 years to live and that may be just it, is very stunning..
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Seraphim23
I wouldn’t worry over lost time because being dead forever is the same for everyone if your right. The man who lived for a hundred years won’t be able to feel superior over the man who died at thirty and the thirty year old wont regret the fact he didn’t get as much time as the hundred year old. Both will be dead for the same amount of time, forever.
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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Seraphim23
What is interesting is that all things are energy yet all things are different. Another topic!
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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Seraphim23
You have to read the whole thing to see why these statements are not contradictions. The issue lies in what some say consciousness is and what others say it is because there is contradiction there. If you place these two lines side by side then of course it looks like the contradiction is in what I am saying.
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43
Coping with becoming an atheist?
by Crazyguy inits been a very eye opening experience for me to find out that the god of the bible is as real as thor or ra.
i still believe a higher power created life but can see now how it doesn't really care about us.
so with this in mind realizing one has only 70-80 years to live and that may be just it, is very stunning..
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Seraphim23
As a believer Giordano I would say that if you’re a good person then that is what matters the most to any God worthy of anything.