For a start I’m not trying to make the argument that the soul leaves the body but that consciousness is non-local to the brain. Also I’m not being intellectually dishonest as I never said terminal lucidity happens all the time. However Rudolph Tanzi who is a professor of neurology at Harvard University indeed does say that cases happen all the time even with dementia patients. He is a professor and does believe in what he calls collective consciousness. I don’t know if I believe that or not, but I do know he knows more about the brain than you and I do. So make of that what you wish.
Seraphim23
JoinedPosts by Seraphim23
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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Seraphim23
This was from the second page.
Scotoma that is true and a valid point! There is no doubt that when the physical object that is the brain is affected or damaged then there are corresponding effects in what is experienced by the person whose brain it is. What might be less clear however is what is doing the experiencing of those effects? Is it a part of the brain, the whole brain or something apart from the brain? Some think the brain is more like a transceiver, in that it picks up and sends signals which would constitute consciousness as opposed to the brain creating consciousness. If it is the brain creating it though does that mean consciousness is a process itself, or as a product of such a process? How on earth can a process be something more that itself though, or if the process is creating consciousness as though it is a product, what is that product and is it physical?
When people fall asleep it is assumed that consciousness becomes unconsciousness but what does that really mean? The brain state changes for sure, but that doesn’t mean that whatever it is that experiences things is in the brain. Whatever that thing might be, it may only be experiencing the differing brain states while not being in the brain itself. Thus in a sense it may be possible for consciousness to experience unconsciousness. People do dream and experience those dreams while they are having them but have no memory of the dream after they wake. This also doesn’t mean they were not having a conscious experience while the brain was unconscious.
Even more bizarrely it has been noted by hospice staff , nurses and relatives of dying patients a phenomenon that sometimes occurs called `near death lucidity`. Cases of terminal dementia and other brain altering conditions have been seen to seemingly reverse near the end of the patient’s life. So a few hours for example, before so and so dies, they sit up and suddenly recognise and talk to their relatives and loved ones as though their dementia damaged brain were healed and memories restored, despite its destruction long ago. In such cases was it the brain or a signal to the brain that was responsible?
Perhaps the soul doesn`t have a hole in it at all!
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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Seraphim23
I did before with terminal lucidity. I also am waiting for answers to my questions already posed.
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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Seraphim23
Viviane, a burst of activity in the brain doesn’t explain the phenomena as the memories are not there to stimulate by such activity, as it is brain destruction that is the very thing killing dementia patients. Also the experience of brain states does not mean that whatever is experiencing those states is in the brain. Indeed consciousness itself is entirely anecdotal.
Finkelstein, it might be better to get evidence first of all of what consciousness actually is, as opposed to correlates of consciousness found in the brain. I can provide any amount of different forms of anecdotal evidence that consciousness is non-local to the brain, which is but one minimum requirement to a soul living after death, but that probably won’t be good enough for some, even though the same is also true for consciousness itself being real as opposed to an illusion. Anecdotal evidence that consciousness is real is all there is in terms of evidence that it is real. Looking at a brain wont prove anything about the reality or lack thereof of where of what does the experiencing.
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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Seraphim23
Didn’t I mention near death or terminal lucidity as evidence way back?
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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Seraphim23
I already addressed those points way back.
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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Seraphim23
lol
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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Seraphim23
For the purposes of this discussion soul is synonymous with consciousness.
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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Seraphim23
Thanks for the discussion.
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149
If you reject the existence of the soul then you are an Animist?
by Seraphim23 inthe classic debate between those who believe that consciousness is merely the result of the operation of the brain, and those who believe that it is apart from the brain, like the idea of a soul or the classic dualistic distinction between mind and body, is a well-known one.. however the thought has occurred that when people try to convince me that the soul cannot be real; soul in the sense of consciousness being a separate thing to the operation of the brain, then really the materialistic non spiritual view is in fact a rehash of animism, strange as that might sound.. animism is the idea that soul, spirit, consciousness, or whatever it might be called, exists in plants, animals, things, objects, places or basically in everything and anything in the material world.
the view of some is that very primitive cultures had this wide category of spiritual belief, which eventually evolved into the all the religions, faiths and spiritualties of today.
some of the faiths of modern times are not defined as animistic because these draw a distinction between soul and body or in modern parlance, consciousness and brain.. so in very ancient times, at the dawn of human spiritual belief, the sun, for example, rising and setting was seen not so much as being caused by the proverbial spaghetti monster but as being the proverbial spaghetti monster.
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Seraphim23
I’m talking about truth in terms of mathematics not the physical universe. There is a difference! In point of fact the word ‘prove` and `proof` formally only applies to mathematics and not science. It is a truth to say in mathematics that A x B will always be the same as B x A. There is likely more truths in mathematics awaiting discovery but they can be proved true or false and not all mathematics applies to the universe.