The energy for the universe came from somewhere that wasn’t the universe, considering the implications of Einstein. Entropy wouldn’t be a fact of the universe if it was a completely open system, so it must be at least partly closed, shown to be the case by the expansion of the universe of Edwin Hubble. Closed from what is the question? Plus the whole logical argument that something must always have been for something to be here now plays its part. Also the other logical argument that if the universe ends, which all closed systems must do, for everything that has a beginning has and end, and there is nothing else other than the universe, the two nothingness’s from the before and after the universe, if that was the case, have to be fundamentally different from one another by virtue of the universe having been in existence in between. The fact that the universe existed, must still exist in the nothing that comes after the universe dies. So one nothing is different from the nothing before the universe was born in this respect except that two nothings cannot be logically different from one another. The only viable alternative is that there is an eternal/infinite metaphysical system, that if taken as a whole is infinite but also separates itself into semi finite systems like this universe. Logic makes this inescapable. The final problem is the difference between infinity and finity. This requires some third element in order to explain it but there is clear need for it unless my premises are wrong. Logic and science provide evidence for this although it is not proof as you rightly say that only works with mathematics. Your work can now begin Cofty!
Seraphim23
JoinedPosts by Seraphim23
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
tootired2care its probably my fault for not making my points clearly enough. I’m not saying that atheists don’t have morals, in fact in the past I have said they probably do better at general morality than those who believe in God. I was talking about a particular type of atheist who basically thinks this universe is all there is without any metaphysical framework.
Such a framework I was trying to point out is logically necessary for morality to have objective and real meaning as opposed to a completely relative one which in the long run will mean nothing and thus also wouldn’t mean much now as a result. Some atheists do see the sense in a metaphysical framework for the universe to be within because of the implications of thermal dynamics for one. They normally don’t apply this logic to consciousness however, although a few do. The problem is God seems to loom ever larger to more one gets into metaphysics, which is probably why there is so much resistance to the idea that more than the universe exists. More intelligent atheists don’t see God as a requirement to a metaphysical system, or a metaphysical system as evidence of God, which is fine by me because that wasn’t the point of this thread anyway. It would have been enough for me to get the logic over that shows that an infinite metaphysical system is required for existence.
As for the God of the bible, I don’t believe it exists if one takes the bible literally. I do believe in God however but that is not the point of this thread.
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
Think about it more Berengaria!
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
Adamah If I go to see a movie without memory I might question the wisdom to go. My point is that something about the movie continues to exist that is not to do with the movie itself. That is memory in the brain and also the ability to experience memory. Even memory would be useless without someone to experience it. Death means even the memory is destroyed if there is no other record of the events of a life, and the death of the universe means no record of the events of the universe. If no record exits and time stops because it is a function of gravity and matter, then how could anyone say the universe ever did happen if someone could be there at that point? The circumstances are the same as if there wasn’t ever a universe. Complete nothingness that always was without anything before it and nothingness that comes after something like the universe are the same things.
The idea of all-encompassing eternal nothingness when compared to a life span of the universe or a man is literally non comparable! One or a trillion are both zero percentages of infinity. This means for reality to even exist something has to always exist. I’m not saying its God but a record of history needs to always exist for history to have been real and to keep being so. Information and reality i.e mathematics and the universe have a correlation this much cannot be denied. Why is a mystery but I suspect it is to do with this metaphysical implication forced by infinity itself.
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
Indeed your right about that Cofty . I understand as a gay man that procreation of my genes in not evolutions only chosen method to place the interests of DNA first. However my point wasn’t a deep analysis of cooperation. My point was deeper than that.
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
Programs can be carried out without being aware of things. Computers carry out programs all the time but there is no moral bad if one breaks or suffering as they can’t suffer. Plus if a man kills the children of another man, and rapes the women and she has his kids, doesn’t that benefit his DNA? People though can override the dictates of inbuilt desires when they try hard to do so.
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
My understanding of current physics is that the universe and everything in it will eventually give way to complete entropy and decay. All values and concepts and thoughts and scientific understandings and so on will mean precisely nothing. So if such things are wedded to the universe and the universe only, without any metaphysical underpinning and that such values and knowledge are lost forever, what do they matter? At most they have relative value for the now, but the now is vanity because of the future coming darkness. It will be as though such things never were. What is the percentage that limited existence has when compared to infinity of non being? I think the answer is zero percent. Something to think about when getting hot and bothered about those who think there is more to existence.
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
Xanthippe I think your right.
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
snare&racket I agree with you to a degree. I think the nearest analogues to good and bad in the physical world of biology, evolution and so on could be called harm and benefit. What is harm and benefit? Another word would be chaos and order. Earthquakes are fundamentally part of the process that makes life possible on earth and an example of chaos creating order. If a human and of course an animal is in the path of that earthquake they suffer and die which is chaos or disorder. So good and bad could be said to be the same thing from different points of view. Wouldn’t that mean they cancel each other out as concepts if their only foundation is based on what material processes do? The moral side of it comes in with humans, and perhaps as you allude to apes, dolphins and elephants. Even for animals that do not have any higher understanding, suffering is still a reality but evolution would not work without it. Does that mean evolution is bad? Some would say so if bad is defined by suffering, and good the lack thereof!
If though you are right and good and bad are real and exist, they exist relative to the individuals inner world of the subjective and the ability to share those inner values and world with others who also have that inner subjective world. That world then is the basis for good and bad being real because chaos and order, destruction and creation have meaning to them which they don’t without the subjective world. The problem for a materialist viewpoint, of which some but not all atheists have, is that there is no empirical way to prove the realness of the inner subjective world. Science is limited to empirical methodology of physicality and forces, and thus it can only point to correlates of brain function and its effects on conscious experience, not the reality of conscious experience itself. So if science is pushed into an ideology that says science is the only truth and science only deals with physical entities and forces, it becomes the arm of materialism that cannot show the reality of the subjective and thus good and bad.
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
Cofty I certainly don’t want all these people to think I am being disingenuous for not replying to you. If you could ask me one question at a time I can respond to you better than multiple points fired in succession. It would more of a conversation then.