I think there is also ignorance as to what some Christians think, along with Muslims, gays and so on. Stereotypes are dangerous wherever they are when left unsupported by reason.
Seraphim23
JoinedPosts by Seraphim23
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47
"you're pretty compassionate for an atheist"
by Hortensia inmy favorite compliment of the day.
what a lot of assumptions people have about what makes an atheist tick..
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Theism without the bible, Koran, or any books and a question!
by Seraphim23 ini was thinking that to put oneself into the mind-set of someone else without the background and upbringing that we had is very hard to do.
if i could live several lives without knowing i was doing so, to then compare all of them at the end of those separately lived lives would pose an interesting set of questions.
one of these would be regarding what i would believe after the comparison of numerously lived dispositions and cultural upbringings.
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Seraphim23
Can you not follow what I actually discuss rather than go by a one line title?
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Theism without the bible, Koran, or any books and a question!
by Seraphim23 ini was thinking that to put oneself into the mind-set of someone else without the background and upbringing that we had is very hard to do.
if i could live several lives without knowing i was doing so, to then compare all of them at the end of those separately lived lives would pose an interesting set of questions.
one of these would be regarding what i would believe after the comparison of numerously lived dispositions and cultural upbringings.
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Seraphim23
It can be an argument for deism if you like Cofty although I take your point that more might be needed in the case for theism over and above a theist God. However I wasn’t necessarily being that fussy. There are other ideas that turn a deist God into a by making physics more closely linked with miraculous occurrences but that is way ahead of this thread.
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Theism without the bible, Koran, or any books and a question!
by Seraphim23 ini was thinking that to put oneself into the mind-set of someone else without the background and upbringing that we had is very hard to do.
if i could live several lives without knowing i was doing so, to then compare all of them at the end of those separately lived lives would pose an interesting set of questions.
one of these would be regarding what i would believe after the comparison of numerously lived dispositions and cultural upbringings.
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Seraphim23
I’m not arguing for the fine tuning argument because it has an adequate counter argument, but it doesn’t have to do with physics not can it, unless someone can prove that the infancy of physics will one day become adult. How does anyone know that it isn’t adult now and almost close to becoming finished or as far as it is possible to go with it? They can’t is the answer to that because it may well be possible that physics will always be in its infancy in terms of the whole lot being known. There could be an infinite amount of knowledge to yet be discovered in physics, in which case the two arguments are fundamentally not the same. There are some very good philosophical and even mathematical arguments in support of the idea that existence really is infinite and hence knowledge. If so such enterprises such as science will always be in infancy and unable to fill the gap of infinity, which will always be open.
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Theism without the bible, Koran, or any books and a question!
by Seraphim23 ini was thinking that to put oneself into the mind-set of someone else without the background and upbringing that we had is very hard to do.
if i could live several lives without knowing i was doing so, to then compare all of them at the end of those separately lived lives would pose an interesting set of questions.
one of these would be regarding what i would believe after the comparison of numerously lived dispositions and cultural upbringings.
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Seraphim23
That’s the point I’m making Giordano, I’m not pointing to any particular God in this instance. The moral argument for Gods existence I would discount myself unlike many a theist. It may be that there is no need for a belief in God assuming he exists and that is perfectly fine, but it’s not what I am asking.
Cofty I would disagree with you that the fine tuning argument is a God of the gaps argument. For instance, the more scientific gaps in knowledge get filled in, the more those new discoveries show how fine-tuned the universe is. The higgs boson has now been discovered which means that if it were not in existence the universe would likely not support life, being as it is such a fundamental part of the universal jigsaw. The fact it seem to be a jigsaw with the pieces fitting so well that the picture that it creates has the picture of life on it shows they are not the same arguments at all. Even though a gap gets filled in, it does nothing to stop but in fact increases the strength of the fine tuning argument. Hence the need for a philosophical counter argument which is the one that gets used.
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Theism without the bible, Koran, or any books and a question!
by Seraphim23 ini was thinking that to put oneself into the mind-set of someone else without the background and upbringing that we had is very hard to do.
if i could live several lives without knowing i was doing so, to then compare all of them at the end of those separately lived lives would pose an interesting set of questions.
one of these would be regarding what i would believe after the comparison of numerously lived dispositions and cultural upbringings.
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Seraphim23
One doesn’t have to do philosophy true but science does come from that same branch of human reason, before the different branches of philosophy diversified, one of which is science. Even in that branch we call science there are interpretations of the data in some areas that lead inexorably to philosophical questions.
For instance the fine tuning argument regarding the universe having to be exactly the way it is for life to exist can persuade some that God exists without any need for a religious book. It doesn’t prove Gods existence because of the counter arguments, but the counter arguments rely on a philosophical approach not a scientific one. So here philosophy is required to an extent, although both sides of the fine tuning argument cannot conclusively make their case as a deeper set of questions are revealed.
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Theism without the bible, Koran, or any books and a question!
by Seraphim23 ini was thinking that to put oneself into the mind-set of someone else without the background and upbringing that we had is very hard to do.
if i could live several lives without knowing i was doing so, to then compare all of them at the end of those separately lived lives would pose an interesting set of questions.
one of these would be regarding what i would believe after the comparison of numerously lived dispositions and cultural upbringings.
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Seraphim23
Cofty and fakesmile you both make good points. I guess you would agree that religion and monotheism as a subset of such beliefs have or had a utilitarian function in human development and was useful for a time, but despite this is wrong and false in actuality and may even be harmful now in the modern era. I get that viewpoint, but what about reasons that are valid rather than functional.
I.e reasons for belief that make philosophical sense and always would do based on things like the fact of the periodic table and what that means other than a list of the elements? For instance the periodic table not only lists the elements, but provides a clue to the idea that all matter in on a fundamental level made up of one thing by virtue of the fact they are related to one another. Here the number one seems to be significant just like one God may be more significant if he exists, than two three or more. Also the periodic table seems to indicate that mathematics has a role in explanations of the physical world and does this provide a philosophical basis for God? Is it a strong reason or a weak reason and so on?
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Theism without the bible, Koran, or any books and a question!
by Seraphim23 ini was thinking that to put oneself into the mind-set of someone else without the background and upbringing that we had is very hard to do.
if i could live several lives without knowing i was doing so, to then compare all of them at the end of those separately lived lives would pose an interesting set of questions.
one of these would be regarding what i would believe after the comparison of numerously lived dispositions and cultural upbringings.
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Seraphim23
I was thinking that to put oneself into the mind-set of someone else without the background and upbringing that we had is very hard to do. If I could live several lives without knowing I was doing so, to then compare all of them at the end of those separately lived lives would pose an interesting set of questions. One of these would be regarding what I would believe after the comparison of numerously lived dispositions and cultural upbringings. What would I believe then? We are all different because of our parents and culture, the times in which we lived and genetic traits, circumstances and list continues on. In the same way and for overlapping reasons, what we believe is a result of these things. So take away all the things that vary between people and which make them think or believe differently, and what it left? Perhaps nothing is left but one could consider that a few things are going to be same no matter the upbringing and culture. These might include the laws of physics at least, unless one lives in the vicinity of a black hole which is unlikely but what else? Perhaps the way reason itself works, although this is a harder case to make because we all have reason, yet all have miner or major differences in opinion. There are rules to reason that not all adhere to of course, but I mean reason on a more profound level i.e what is reason, comprehension and understanding and experience and what do they have in common for all peoples and cultures and individuals? There must be something they have in common which makes we wonder why I believe the way I do and is it right? The million dollar question perhaps but a valid curiosity none the less!
Take away my atheist dad and theist mother. Take away my privileged western upbringing of the 20 th century and take away my own inbuilt biases that come about through DNA and culture. What then do I believe and why because I have no bible or Koran or any of those things? I could go in the other direction and not take these things away but compare my life to those of many others from different walks of life and distil my and their views down to a single strong thread, or would all the threads cancel themselves out like a neutralising solution leaving nothing? One can almost imagine a Shakespeare quote at this point. So here we are:
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
So knowing the futility of faculty or the perils and promise of reason, can one believe in God, perhaps not the biblical one of course but a God none the less and a monotheistic one at that? Well if a supreme being exists it does provide an effective rebuke against Macbeths negligent spirit does it not? Possibly it is more persuasive than any humanist argument for purpose, which to me feels like a toy that winds itself up only to break anyway.
So after all this rhetoric my question is simple and open to both believer and non-believer alike:
If there was no religion (organised that is) and no books like the bible, Koran or cultural stories of creation and nursery rhymes and so on, is there a basis for theism? I think there is of course being a believer in God but what do others think? This is not a question about should we believe or not? Nor is it a question about proof or not, rather it is a question about reasons for, aside from culture, the bible and what we have been told.
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Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'
by Watchtower-Free inhttp://uk.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11201273.htm.
ancient confession found: 'we invented jesus christ'biblical scholars will be appearing at the 'covert messiah' conference at conway hall in london on the 19th of october to present this controversial discovery to the british public.
london (prweb uk) 8 october 2013. american biblical scholar joseph atwill will be appearing before the british public for the first time in london on the 19th of october to present a controversial new discovery: ancient confessions recently uncovered now prove, according to atwill, that the new testament was written by first-century roman aristocrats and that they fabricated the entire story of jesus christ.
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Seraphim23
I’ll be going to this event as an academic mate of mine wants me to go. Ill report back when I do.
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Need Real Friends
by FlierMate ini have been to various mental health message board for years.
however, i cannot find any real friends there.. since my disassociation from the jw, i have no group which i belong to.
i have tried even multilevel marketing scheme in order to make new friends but unsuccessful.. .
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Seraphim23
I sympathise with you FlierMate. I had a breakdown at 19 so I have some knowledge of mental health issues, least as far as depression goes. Sometimes the greatest enemy of progress we want for our own lives can be ourselves. I submit that friends online are never going to be real friends that will be there in the way that is healthy. The best friends I have ever had were what the JWs would call worldly friends, probably because it was not based on towing some line but because we just get on. Even when I was a JW I never neglected such friends because my own dad is an atheist. That scripture that says `there is a friend that sticks closer than a brother`, has a certain truth to it.
Getting out of one’s comfort zone is must for making new friends. My own issue that I deal with these days is agoraphobia which was a legacy of the depression of my youth. Some of my more recent friends I only made because of forcing that barrier into submission even if it’s not something I can always do.
What I did, being a gay man, who is a Christian also was to search for some gay Christians groups online. I did so and met up with them on one of their meet ups. I didn’t meet up straight away but after chatting for a while online. After I met up I made two friends. There was some there I didn’t like in terms of wanting to be friends with them but these two I liked and they liked me. Since then, which was some years ago now I have made several friends of their friends as well as still doing my bit to maintain their friendships. I even went on holiday with some of them.
It all took some effort on my part because of my own issues, but the reward made up for the effort. It won’t happen without some pain involved though.
Your issues are going to be different from mine but I hope they are something you can work with and transcend even for temporary periods so as to be able to make the friends you need. We all need friends and unlike family we can choose them. Jesus certainly chose his friends and even he had issues with some of them, but he created his family of choice one might say.
Don’t feel bad because many of us have been there, wondering why we don’t have friends, even though some won’t admit to such a thing.