Posts by 1009

14

What Congregation should you attend?

by Quarterback in

jw
friends

can someone, please, help me in finding this?.

i remember in a kingdom ministry, written quite some time, ago.. it mentioned that it was upto the individual family to determine what congregation they would attend, based on their own circumstances.

they wouldn't be subjected to determined boundaries.. does anyone remember that one, and where it exists?.

1009

Translated from the Dutch version:

*** km 2/11 page 7 Question box ***
What advantages does it have to visit the congregration of the area in which we live ? Circumstances vary from person to person, and factors such as the worldly work, an unbelieving spouse and transport would affect ones final decision in this regard. However, it has obvious advantages, both spiritually and in other areas, if someone is connected to the congregation which belongs to the area in which he lives... We are confident that family heads will meditate prayerfully on the issue and will consider all the factors involved to determine what is best for the mental and physical well-being of their families. - 1 Tim. 5:8.

*** Km 91/5 page 7 Question box ***
While there may be some exceptions - because of transport problems, times of worldly work or the need for assistance - it is in general best to visit the congregation in the area where we live...
By working humbly within the limits of the arrangements we will be demonstrating the Kingdom interests in the first place to be (Luke 16:10).

So while it is clearly discouraged to visit another congregation, the km 2/11 clearly says that family heads should make a decision, based on their circumstances.

Note that a personal preference will not be appreciated in general. In practice I've seen a lot of JW visiting other congregations without problems. Brothers will not get any 'privileges' though.

[Edit: to slow].

33

The Truth about Eve...... is there more to the story, and has it been hidden by religion ?

by *lost* in

i get the feeling that there is more to the eve story than we are aware of.. if we look at the patriachal religions, they are very 'anti-woman'.

is this based on their corruption of the bible story.. .

yes, i think there is more to the story of eve, and our the 'origins' than we think.. father god, mother goddess.. .

1009

Most animal species are 'highly-patriarchal'.

Are they too influenced by eastern cultures?
I think it is just the nature of the specie.

165

Board of bitterness

by 1009 in

i always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.

but still this religion fascinates me.

in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.

1009

rebel8But abstaining from blood, is not a medical advice. Incorrect.
If you wish to educate yourself, read this article and verify the wt literature quotes.

Their primary motivation is based on their understanding of the Bible.
Meanwhile they evidently have misquoted medical literature to support their view.

165

Board of bitterness

by 1009 in

i always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.

but still this religion fascinates me.

in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.

1009

freeflyingfaerie
Maybe you are in a state of denial?

There is no way of getting around going through a grieving after leaving the religion (if you were really 'in' for any length of time), and for some it involves more venting than for others, and in different ways... you cannot deny that the religion leaves a 'bitter' taste. Intensify the feeling for each loss..be it a loved one, sqaushed talent, etc etc. Each of these a blow. A kick in the gut. Come to us by living the best way we knew at the time. Our minds..our souls were messed with, for crying out loud

There has to be anger somewhere in the healing, and sadness, and yes, bitterness... at least some..at least at some time..

...and this is coming from someone who wears rose-coloured glasses most days...

Hi freeflyingfaerie,

I do not have the idea I am in a state of denial. My experience is just different. Is that really so hard to accept?

gbrn
I really liked Simons comment about this being a great place to vent. Because of that it may not readily be apparent that someone has moved on more or less. Plus as others have pointed out, we are all at different stages in this process. Im still relatively new to leaving the religion, and it helps me tremendously to read comments of others. All of my family is IN and will have nothing to do with me since 3 years ago. I thought by just stopping and not getting DFd I could avoid being shunned. Boy was I wrong! And the few friends Ive made since Ive left really cant relate or dont have much interest in talking about a wacky religion. This forum can be great therapy when used appropriately and respectfully. Ive hesitated to take part in posting for quite some time due to the occasional petty arguments and passive aggressive insults toward other users (but thats unavoidable online), but after "lurking" (hate that term, it sounds so creepy) for awhile it seems to me the majority of users here are sincere and are in this together - for which I am very, very greatful for. Bring on the bitterness, haha!

Hi gbrn,

I agree on the 'venting' part: it is important that one has a place where he can vent his feelings. This board is a great place and I saw many interesting topics. I'll just ignore the 'petty arguments and passive aggresive insults'.

You are not DF but got shun? That is not what is taught. But I have heard it before. It sucks.

punkofnice
My JW wife and daughter walked out on me after I was booted out of the corporation for 'apostacy(TM)'. I tried to fade but the elders hounded me. My loving family is now broken apart. My other 2 children have been on meds as a result of the break up that I didn't ask for. A break up that was fired by the watchtower's hatred of 'apostates(TM)'.

Tell me....................how do I deal with this? Just laugh it off? Blank out the pain because sh1t happens according to you?

Well? Come on I'm ready!!!

Hi punkofnice,

You're obviously hurt. Leaving an apostate spouse is not what is taught, at least not in the JW literature. You have any reason to be bitter. I do not know how to deal with such pain. And I am not the right person to give you any advice in that matter, because I walked out on my wife.

But I will tell you what I think. First of all: you too have to move on living! Like you said you would do: "I'm moving on." But I also understand that it is an emotional rollercoaster. Now that you finally don't have the WT yoke, you must enjoy life where you can. Ofcourse you cannot laugh it off, but a sense of humor might help. Find empatic friends and vent your feelings, this board is a great place for that.

Actually I think that you are well on your way. Maybe further than you realize. But it is all still pretty recent, and the wounds will take time to heal.

165

Board of bitterness

by 1009 in

i always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.

but still this religion fascinates me.

in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.

1009

Knowsnothing
Is it wrong to teach jihad? That if you blow yourself and others up for the cause of your religious movement, you will gain eternal life in heaven?

OK, good point. I too believe it is wrong to murder another human being. So when is it wrong to teach a doctrine? Who is able to decide that?

Side question: Is it wrong if a country sends its youngster into war for the cause of oil to defend the population? Why is that commonly considered honorable? And where does that differ from Jihad? They too believe that they are fighting for a higher cause. Here in Colombia we have an annual 'cleaning' where drug addicts and pedophiles are murdered. It's unlawfull, but tolerated. Is that wrong?

165

Board of bitterness

by 1009 in

i always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.

but still this religion fascinates me.

in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.

1009

TD

There is some cultural fluidity in what is considered moral conduct, but there is considerable unanimity on big things like wrongful death.

I think that observation is neither here nor there as far as JW's are concerned though. The leaders and policy makers in the JW faith operate very much within the Western Judeo-Christian framework and clearly recognize concepts from Jewish law like, 'bloodguilt'. I'm sure in your time spent as a JW, you heard that term many times. It's a broad term that includes any and all secondary and contributory causes of wrongful death.

If you hire someone to kill your spouse, you're just as bloodguilty as if you pulled the trigger yourself. If you fail to provide adequete safeguards for dangerous conditions like fall hazards, and someone falls to their death, you're still bloodguilty even though you didn't actually push them. If you fail to warn someone who's endangering their life out of ignorance, you're bloodguilty if they die. If you as a layperson give bad medical advice and someone dies as a result, you're bloodguilty.

Ethics is the formal language of moralilty and it actually has a lot to say when it comes to the life and health of other people. Even if all you're doing is writing a fluffy article in a trendy health magazine about the latest weight loss regimen, you still have to be very careful to say, "Always consult with your physician before starting any diet or exercise program." If you were to say, "Don't listen to your physician, listen to me instead" you will very likely wind up in jail. And that is the essence of what JW's have said about transfusion medicine for many years.

But abstaining from blood, is not a medical advice. They believe (I believed) it was a divine law. So they consider it (religiously) wrong to use blood, whereas you have no religious objections.

Adamah stated earlier: " The eisegesis in Acts rests upon a foundation of their far-greater misunderstanding of Genesis 9, which is based on a mistranslation which resulted from confusing a blessing with an obligation." Is it ethically wrong to misunderstand something? Is it ethically wrong to believe that what the Biblical commands on the subject of blood should be applied to the medical use as well? And if you believe that, is it ethically wrong to abstain from blood? And if you are a religious leader, is it ethically wrong to teach what you believe?

Jehovah's Witnesses teach strict obedience without compromise. They are expected to die fairly horrible deaths rather than buy a political party card, salute a flag, etc. Peer pressure hardly compares to a concentration campe does it?

Strict obedience, yes. But to who? The JW who doesn't buy a political party card: is that because they don't want to disappoint the the GB? The average JW probably doesn't even know their names. When they don't salute the flag: is that because they are afraid of the elders? Maybe in some cases, especially the ones who have some doubts. But they will not stand firm for long. The individual JW will endure hard times because of the conviction that it is God's will.

40

Former Longtime Elder : Contributions

by James Jackson in

jw
friends

for a year now, i have been handling the accounts.

we have 6 elders and 7 ms, and none of them ( i am not serving), want to do the accounts, so they asked me to do it.

here is what i have noticed.. 4 elderly sisters cover the whole congregation in donations monthly!

1009

For a year now, I have been handling the Accounts. We have 6 Elders and 7 MS, and none of them ( I am not Serving), want to do the Accounts, so they asked me to do it. Here is what I have noticed.

They don't want this privilige??? Huh? What a nice attitude. What happened with the 'here am I, send me' attitude?

4 elderly sisters cover the whole congregation in donations monthly! We have 74 pubs. We take in $800-1000 a month (3 congregations share the expenses). Nobody uses cash, just checks, so I know.

Only 1 Elder is faithfully giving each month. 2 of them I have only seen give twice in a year. The other 3, NOTHING!!! Only 1 MS have I seen give a check, and it was a one time deal. The other 6, NOTHING!!! Is this just weird or what?

I used to transfer about $ 60 each month at the congregations bank account. Automatically, so I wouldn't forget it. And tax deductible ofcourse.

165

Board of bitterness

by 1009 in

i always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.

but still this religion fascinates me.

in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.

1009

Bungi Bill
By the way, 1009, thanks for starting this thread. While some have reacted angrily (and initially, you pressed a few of my buttons, too!), I think that you have demonstrated that we can discuss such matters without hurting each other!

Hi Bill,

Thank you. I learned the last days I should choose my words more carefully. I recognize now that my opening was too provocative. I'm sorry for that. I may have had a pretty good time as a JW, but a lot of visitors here have serious wounds. I should take that into consideration before posting.

165

Board of bitterness

by 1009 in

i always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.

but still this religion fascinates me.

in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.

1009

TD
Ethics 101: Manipulate someone into doing something morally wrong regardless of whether it be through inducement or coercion and you are guilty too. Their agency does not diminish your responsibilitly one whit.

A hallmark of JW's and kindred groups is a rules based system of ethics and a resultant fascile grasp of personal responsibility. Are you sure you've truly left this group mentally?

Hi TD,

But moral is fluid. What you consider morally wrong, is morally right in another culture. Who finally defines what is right or wrong? In our society moral is more or less defined by what the mayority prefers. Mostly influinced by (inter alia) history and the example of charismatic leaders. The WTG point for their system of ethics to their understanding of the Bible. And because people have the right of freedom, they can. And JW submit themselves to that system. Now, you should consider that the leaders are subject to peer pressure, maybe even more than regular JW because of their prominent position. So the leaders will on their turn submit themselves to the group. Probably not in every aspect, because they most show some leadership. But the changes they introduce, will hardly cause any uproar.

So practically: the GB cannot change the blood doctrine. Any GB member that will try to change the doctrine, will be removed and replaced by a member that does reflect the historical system of ethics that the group as a whole excepts. So, sure, they are guilty according to your moral. But they are trapped too.

adamah
I can point out MANY examples of ex-JWs who say they would THANK the elders for DFing them, as it ultimately allowed them to cut the umbilical cord wrapped around their neck which kept them from breathing on their own, and allowed them to free their minds from the cult (partly via participation in discussion forums such as this). Some would look back and say it was the best thing that ever happened, since it taught them a valuable life lesson ("that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger").

There's an old adage from customer service that customers who are unhappy with some service will complain loudly to ten others, whereas the larger silent minority of 'satisfied customers' won't talk about their happy experience to only one or two; it's an asymmetrical response, since it's human nature that people like to complain more than praise. So that's going to bias the appearance of ANY forum, since those who want/need to vent will speak out moreso than the others (like 1099). [..]

The problem though, is that a 'religion' is comprised of people who share a certain flawed BELIEF. You cannot punish a CONCEPT, but only the individuals who ACT on that flawed belief. So the key is individuals must accept their responsibility for the harm inflicted as a result of their PARTICIPATION in an organization that shares the belief, EVEN IF they weren't directly involved in the incident.

Few are willing to do the mental work required to see that level of shared responsibility, since they're paradoxically morally-handicapped by accepting that ALL morality comes from God, and He cannot do ANY wrong. It's simply an excuse to get away with harming others, and blaming it on their loyalty to God.

The appeal for action is based on the ULTIMATE appeal to authority ever devised (an appeal to God's authority, ie "God wants me to do X, so I will"), and the BLAME for any resultant harm is ALSO put on God's shoulders ("I was only doing God's Will"). It's that TOTAL externalization that makes religion so ripe for manipulating others, since the one who TELLS YOU what God wants is able to control the followers as if they're marionettes.

hi adamah,

Thank you. That's nicely worded. I agree with every word you said.

165

Board of bitterness

by 1009 in

i always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.

but still this religion fascinates me.

in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.

1009

TD
This was the original argument against transfusion. (i.e. That it nourished the body like food) When that argument failed, JW's had a clear choice to either retract it and admit they were wrong and didn't really understand what a blood transfusion was for OR continue to teach the doctrine using less than honest means. They chose the latter.

1009, if you're still reading, there is nothing bitter about pointing this out.

Hi TD,

Still reading, not much time to respond though. Indeed, I didn't note any bitterness in your post.

Miss.Fit
1009 - It must be hard to understand when you dont share the same experiences. Keep an open mind. The more you read the more you will see how similar these experiences are.

Except for the lying, two faced Elder dad who molested my sisters and beat us at home, I'm ?sure the JWs are nice an d loving. What did you get dfd for? Do you think it was worse than what he did? Does that seem fair?

Hi Miss.Fit,

Thank you. I read and learn. What a terrible dad you had. I left me wife and got DF after having a new relation. I cannot judge if that is more or less worse than what your father did. You ask me if it is fair that I got DF and he didn't? Maybe not. But I don't think that DF isn't about being fair, it is not a punishment. By DF'ing me they said: we don't want you anymore. Which was fine, because I allready lost my faith in God, I could finally enjoy my freedom and I was tired of the apathy and dumbness amongst JW. So, I saw it as a blessing, not as a punishment. I don't know of DF'ing your father would have helped you and your sisters. Maybe it would even have worsened the situation. Also: DF is religious measure, not to protect your family.