some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!
the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.
now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..
Burn,
I think this is getting to the point of being ridiculous. I have not dodged your questions at all. Those questions tell me your opinion is that Christian belief can be founded upon something other than the Bible and that other writings can constitute Scripture. My answer is that I am not of your mindset in this matter. What more can I say to make you happy with my answer?
fjtoth
some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!
the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.
now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..
Burn,
You have not answered my questions:
Is the Bible the only thing to define what we believe as Christians?
There were many books that claimed to be from God. Many of them are extant but are not part of the Bible. Others are. How do you know which ones belong in Scripture?
Your questions tell me that you accept the Trinity because you do not feel the Bible is completely inspired of God. My answer to both questions: I'm not of that mindset.
What authority do you have to tell us what scripture really means?
I have to tell you that you've posed a very strange question. I'll answer it with a question of my own: "What authority do you have to tell us it's impossible to understand the Bible just because you and others don't understand it?"
Who defined what is Scripture for Christians? You continue to evade the question.
I haven't evaded the question. In fact, you quoted it from 2 Timothy 3:16, 17, just above your question.
fjtoth
some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!
the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.
now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..
Deputy Dog,
I'm not so sure about that.
Well, I am sure. As clarified above, the Scriptures plainly show that Jesus is called "God" because he is God's agent, just as Moses, David and others were addressed as "God." But many Trinitarians prefer their own emotional hang-up on this topic. Instead of accepting what the Bible plainly says, they prefer to view Jesus as Almighty God, as the only "true" God, whereas the Scriptures reserve that status for God the Father alone.
Your quotations from Strong's prove nothing. And your understanding of morphe is very different from what scholars have to say about it. Yes, it's true that Greek uses a different word for "image," but so do we in English. We can say either "image," "carbon copy," "facsimile," "likeness," "replica," "portrait" or some similar word. In Greek, the words for "image" and "form" mean basically the same thing.
According to Robert Thayer in his well-respected lexicon, morphe (the word for "form") means "the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; external appearance." A person can have similar features as someone else, but that doesn't mean he actually is that someone else. So what is your point in trying to show that "form" has an altogether different meaning than "image" when there actually isn't any difference?
If the bible tells me that Jesus took the "form"/ morphe¯ of a "servant"/doulos, I believe he did do what it says. You don't "but Christ was never a bond-servant or doulos" (to most people this looks like you don't believe or don't "understand the Scriptures")
No, I don't believe you accept what the Bible says. Taking on the "form" of a doulos does not mean that Jesus actually became a doulos. As I explained to you earlier, in the parable of the landowner, Jesus clearly showed that he was not a doulous. Why do you prefer to not accept Jesus' own word on the matter?
I believe God has the ability to become what ever he wants to become.
Yes, God has the ability to do anything. But he is not a genie who will perform any trick we want him to. We need to ask ourselves, Is God what he says he is, or is my conception of him a better description of him? The Trinity is a concept in the minds of humans that was never put there by God or Jesus. It is an invention of sinful men who introduced the idea centuries after inspired writers completed their writing of the Bible.
fjtoth
some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!
the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.
now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..
MOG,
You made some good points. Yes, God himself is the one who labeled others like Moses and David, as well as Jesus, with the title "God."
I appreciate what you wrote about Hebrews 1:8. That is an excellent example of the meaning of "God" when applied to agents of God the Father. Hebrews 1:8 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7. Originally the words of those verses in Psalms and Hebrews applied to David, as explained by several commentaries. Obviously David was not Almighty God. Showing that it applied once upon a time to the king of Israel in Jerusalem, the New International Version Study Bible says this in a footnote on Psalm 45:6:
45:6 O God. Possibly the king's throne is called God's throne because he is God's appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as "god." The Davidic king (the "LORD'S anointed," 2 Sa 19:21), because of his special relationship with God, was called at his enthronement the "son" of God (see 2:7; 2 Sa 7:14; 1 Ch 28:6; cf. 89:27). In this psalm, which praises the king and especially extols his “splendor and majesty” (v. 3), it is not unthinkable that he was called “god” as a title of honor (cf. Isa 9:6). Such a description of the Davidic king attains its fullest meaning when applied to Christ, as the author of Hebrews does (Heb 1:8—9).
Surely, if the words of Psalm 45:6, 7 and Hebrews 1:8 can be applied to David, they can be applied to Jesus. But this certainly does not mean that either David or Jesus is the only true God. The Father is the only unique or "true" God.
fjtoth
some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!
the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.
now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..
jwfacts,
most Jews, Muslims and JWs have not bothered to learn what the Trinity doctrine is.
How many Catholics or Protestants do you know who have "bothered to learn what the Trinity doctrine is"? Polls and surveys over the years have provided a devastating glimpse into the common ignorance that prevails in churchianity on this topic. It is a rare churchgoer indeed who can explain the Trinity in understandable terms. Many church pastors themselves are at a loss as to how to do it. The Trinity is generally accepted only because it's a requirement for church membership whether it is understood or not.
The Trinity doctrine is that "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah -Deut 6:4. There is one God. That God may be revealed in the form of Father Son and Holy Spirit, but there is still only one God in the Trinitarian teaching.
Even your own definition is sadly and sorely lacking in clarity, and it is far from the definition of the Trinity as given in church statements of faith and in common dictionaries and encyclopedias. It isn't honest or truthful to deny that Trinitarians worship a god that has THREE frames of reference - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is a THREE-in-one god mentioned not even once in the divine Scriptures.
fjtoth
some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!
the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.
now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..
Lilly,
I think you have me confused with someone else. I don't recall ever asking you what your beliefs are about the Holy Spirit, so why should I take the time to go back to find out what you wrote previously?
Frank
some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!
the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.
now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..
Lilly,
To be honest, I don't understand your question. Would you mind showing me where I said you must agree with my view of the Holy Spirit and the Trinity?
I really doubt I wrote such a thing. What I did say is that we must agree with God. His teachings are very clear if we're able to set aside foolish teachings such as the Trinity, etc., that are not found anywhere in the Bible.
fjtoth
some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!
the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.
now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..
Lilly,
Thanks for your thoughts. But I have to disagree with the spirit you convey. The Bible says plenty about the Holy Spirit, and there's no excuse for a person who reads the Bible not to understand what the Spirit is all about. It's a cop-out, pure and simple, to say it's a mystery that we can't fully understand.
Instead of your view or mine on the Trinity, as devout truthseekers we ought to be diligently searching for the truth about God as he revealed it in the Bible. It is his mind on matters that counts, not yours or mine. I still think you view the Bible as less important than one's own inner feelings. What good are our feelings if they are no different from others who never looked into the Bible but who depend upon what others tell them?
As for whether or not we MUST accept some things about God and Christ, there are warnings about false teachers and false Christs who can carry us off as their spiritual prey if we are defenseless. This isn't a matter of being "hung up on this one teaching." It's an effort to uncover and lay bare the truth about God and Christ. To some people the truth is insignificant. All they want is peace and quiet such as can only be found in utopia or la-la land. Such persons don't have to come to this or similar threads. If that's all they want in life, I don't condemn them. But I pray for them that they might awaken to the fact that our lives are very short and that they just might miss out on the glories that are to come by failing to get in through "the narrow door." (Matthew 7:13, 14; Luke 13:24)
To "agree to disagree" on such an important issue, in my view, is to renounce Christ. It is a failure to grasp the insights and spirit of Paul who wrote: "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!" (Romans 11:33) 'Seek and ye shall find!' 'Keep on asking, knocking and seeking, and it will be opened unto you.'
fjtoth
some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!
the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.
now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..
Burn,
Is that so hard to understand?
I can understand the Scriptures, and I can understand why you are denying what they say. Many people resist accepting views that oppose their own.
You say you are familiar with the Biblical law of agency, yet you don't accept it. Instead, you say God alone is to be worshipped. That is what you say regardless of the fact that God allows worship of those who represent him as his agents.
For example, the captain of the host of the Lord was reverentially worshipped. (Joshua 5:14) There are plenty of examples in the Old Testament of angels being addressed worshipfully as God though they were not God but were his agents. Additionally, Jesus predicted that the day is coming when his followers, who are certainly not God, will be "worshipped." (Revelation 3:9)
You keep saying that I don't understand the Trinity. It so happens that I have the same view of you. For example, other Trinitarians speak of the Divine Three, and you seem to feel the expression is inappropriate. Who of you Trinitarians really grasp this strange teaching you want the rest of us to swallow hook, line and sinker? I've spoken with and studied with Trinitarians and unitarians for 60 years. I think in all that time I must have picked up something of a fairly good idea what all those persons, clergy and laity, believe about the God they worship. By the way, in all those 60 years I've never met a Bible-believing unitarian who switched to accepting the Trinity doctrine, but I have met several Trinitarians who finally realized that the teaching has no merit at all when put to the test with Bible in hand.
fjtoth
some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!
the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.
now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..
Lilly,
What you seem to be saying is, "Put the Bible aside. It's useless for settling questions about God. Even Christians in early centuries disagreed about some of its teachings. So just forget about the Bible, and everything will turn out all right."
Perhaps that is how you genuinely feel, but I tend to doubt it's going to bring good results into your life. There is a God. He had the Bible written so that we might get to know him. To say that the Bible won't do that for us is to say God is a liar.
The Bible tells us that every bit of it is inspired. It also foretold that scoffers would come along and ridicule what it teaches. But my experience, and the experience of millions of others, is that the Bible "is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16, 17)
You wrote:
Also, as Christians we know that accepting Jesus as our Lord is more important than believing in the trinity
Tell me, how can anyone accept Jesus as Lord if he or she ignores what Jesus said and what others wrote about him in the Scriptures?
fjtoth
