fjtoth

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Posts by fjtoth

• 
  343

  I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

  the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

  now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

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  fjtoth

  Deputy Dog,

  Again there is a big difference between the words.

  Contrary to what you say, there is no "big" difference between doulos ("form") and morphe ("image). They can be "used interchangeably," as shown by their interchangeable use in the Greek Septuagint, as mentioned in my previous post. Additionally, at Hebrews 10:1 several translations say "form" instead of "image" when translating eikon.

  "The law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form[eikon] of these realities." (English Standard Version)"The law has only a shadow of the good things to come, and not the actual form [eikon] of those realities." (Holman Christian Standard Bible)"The Law ... has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form [eikon] of things." (New American Standard Bible)"The law has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the true form [eikon] of these realities." (New Revised Standard Version)"The law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form [eikon] of these realities" (Revised Standard Version)

  My argument is not that the words aren't similar in meaning, it's that they are not interchangeable, in this context.

  Where do you get authoritative support for saying they cannot be used interchangeably in Philippians 2:6? What determines that it's okay to use them interchangeably elsewhere, but not here?

  Elsewhere the Bible says Jesus is the "image" of God:

  "Christ, who is the image of God." (2 Corinthians 4:4)
  "He is the image of the invisible God." (Colossians 1:15)

  If other texts say that Christ is the "image" of God, where is the evidence that this text in Philippians 2:6 is not saying the same thing, in view of the two words being interchangeable elsewhere?

  Being in the "image" or "form" of God does not make one God or equal to God. Adam and Eve were created in God's "image," but that did not make them God. (Genesis 1:26, 27; 5:1; 9:6) And Christians are in the "image" of God. (1 Corinthians 11:7; Ephesians 4:24; Colossians 3:10) God's intention is that all mankind should be in his "image," but that will never make them God.

  Deuteronomy 4:16, 23 is another example that plainly shows "form" is simply another word for "image" or "likeness". The Israelites were commanded: "Do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the sky, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water below the earth ... a graven image in the form of anything against which the LORD your God has commanded you." The "form" of any animal did not equal the actual animal in any sense.

  fjtoth
• 
  343

  I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

  the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

  now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

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• 

  fjtoth

  Deputy Dog,

  Many scholars point out that the expressions "form [morphe] of God" and "image [eikon] of God" are similar in meaning. For example, James Dunn, in his monumental work Christology in the Making, states on page 115: "It has long been recognized that morphe and eikon are near synonyms." R.P. Martin, in an article on "Morphe in Philippians 2:6," states that "morphe and eikon are equivalent terms that are used interchangeably in the LXX [Greek Septuagint]." -- Expository Times, Vol. 70, Number 6, March 1959, pages 183-184.

  The scholarly lexicon by Walter Bauer, translated and revised by Arndt and Gingrich, has under morphe, “form, outward appearance, shape.” The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by Gerhard Kittel, has “form, external appearance.” Kittel also notes that morphe and the word for "appearance" (schema) are often interchangeable.

  According to Bauer's Lexicon, Josephus used morphe to describe the shape of statues that were in the image, shape or form of living persons. If these examples aren't enough, I can supply you with several more.

  Philippians 2:7 doesn't say Jesus became a bond-servant. It says he took the "form" of a bond-servant. There is a big difference. In Eden the devil took on the form of a cunning and deceitful serpent, but that doesn't mean he actually was a serpent. Jesus did the opposite. Though he held a highly-privileged position as God's Son, he took on "the form of a bond-servant." But that doesn't mean he actually became a bond-servant who was forced into slavery beyond his own will.

  It certainly is true that Jesus was obediently submissive to the point of death. But we have to keep in mind the terminology of the Bible, not our own personal definition of bond-servant (doulos). The word doulos occurs 120 times in the New Testament, and this is the only verse that compares Jesus to a bond-servant. But it does not say he was such. It says, on the other hand, that he took on the "form" of such.

  I think you should be able to see clearly that someone "in the form of" someone else does not mean that both are one and the same. Christ being "in the form of" God therefore does not mean that Christ is God in the sense that the Father is God. The Father alone is the only "true" or authentic God, according to Jesus himself. -- John 17:3.

  I apologize for typing "Robert" Thayer instead of "Joseph" Thayer. For over a century, Joseph Henry Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon has been lauded as one of the best New Testament lexicons available. Thayer's Lexicon was compiled several years before he changed his position on Biblical inerrancy, but he never wavered in his belief in the overall soundness of Christianity. He never expressed himself as having, in your words, "a low view of scripture."

  If the bible tells me that Jesus took the "form"/ morphe¯ of a "servant"/doulos, I believe he did do what it says. You don't "but Christ was never a bond-servant or doulos" (to most people this looks like you don't believe or don't "understand the Scriptures")

  If you really do believe what the Bible says, I think it would be evident in your acceptance of what those wiser than you or I have to say about doulos and its use in the Bible. How do you know that "most people" would take the position that those with the correct understanding of doulos "don't 'understand the Scriptures'"?

  That passage does not even address the matter of Jesus being a servant, you are reading it into the text.

  Please read the parable of the landowner once again. Every commentary I've ever read says the obvious, that Jesus is not one of the "servants" (doulos) but that he is instead the "son" (huios) in that parable.

  I suppose you think he came disguised as a servant? What would that accomplish ?

  I never used the word "disguised," so why bring it up? The point of Philippians 2:6 is that Jesus could have asserted himself, being as he was the very Son of God; but instead he humbled himself before others. He was not in forced slavery as a bond-servant, but he acted as if he were. He was not a bond-servant, but he took on the "form" of one.

  fjtoth
  http://formerjw.homestead.com
• 
  343

  I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

  the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

  now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

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  fjtoth

  Burn,

  I agree that it's best to conclude amicably. But I'm more conservative than you about God's view of "a sincere heart that labors in error." Saul of Tarsus engaged in such labor until he saw the light. When his error was shown to him, he made an about-face in his beliefs and life-goal. It's good he did since God doesn't look kindly upon obstinacy and stubbornness. What God expected of Saul, he and Christ expect of us.

  Even while the apostles were alive, some Christians were trusting in "another Christ" to save them. Rather than dismiss that as simply "a poor reflection" of the truth or as "imperfect knowledge to a greater or lesser degree," the apostle Paul gave this chiding and warning: "I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully." (2 Corinthians 11:3, 4)

  Even more forcefully, he scolded: "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! (Galatians 1:6-9) [Underlining mine.]

  I haven't presented "another Christ." I've advocated what the Bible teaches about Christ, not what tradition or orthodoxy teaches. Contrary to the simple truth of the Bible, an entire system of "salvation" has evolved over the past 2,000 years that totally obscures the simple truth of the gospel as Jesus taught it.

  I urge you to look at the picture very carefully. I hope you will take seriously the warnings against "another Christ." I'm sure that heaven will bestow a wondrous outcome.

  God bless,

  fjtoth
• 
  343

  I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

  the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

  now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

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  fjtoth

  Burn,

  Again you are greatly mistaken. It is divine truth, not accurate explanations of pagan doctrine, that brings forth good fruitage. You exaggerate not a little when you claim there has been growth such as related in Acts. There has never been an occasion since then where thousands were converted in one day by clear Bible preaching.

  Of course, in line with their pagan teachings, Trinitarian churches have made millions of converts by threatening them with the sword. But that's another story.

  fjtoth
• 
  343

  I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

  the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

  now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

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  fjtoth

  Burn,

  Jews (the religion, not the people) believe that Jesus was not the Christ. ... Should Christians abandon these beliefs to make their faith more palatable to them as well?

  Before the pagan Trinity was added to Christianity, thousands upon thousands of Jews became Christians. According to the book of Acts, there were occasions when thousands of Jews converted in one day. We will never see such a thing again until theologians re-examine Christianity and "abandon these beliefs to make their faith more palatable to" sincere truthseekers of all nationalities and religious groups.

  fjtoth
• 
  343

  I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

  the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

  now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

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  fjtoth

  Burn,

  Well then maybe I am confused.

  Yes, indeed you are! The only other thing I can imagine is that, like the scribes and Pharisees, you are trying to set up a trap of some kind. Why else would you seem incapable of moving on? You just can't seem to move forward because you've reached a roadblock. That roadblock is my inability to read your mind or what you perceive to be my refusal to play your little game. Such is the method of Trinitarians generally. You can't prove your doctrine with Scripture, so you dream up schemes and tactics that just might lead your opponent to play into your hands. Non-trinitarians are bound by the truth of the Scriptures. We don't need gimmicks. Trinitarians, instead of acknowledging how scripturally defenseless they are, try to plod on with trifles and diversions, hoping something will open up where they can make a big win, a win that never comes.

  fjtoth
• 
  343

  I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

  the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

  now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

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  fjtoth

  Burn,

  Your refusal answer my two questions makes your lack of knowledge apparent.

  You're continuing your ridiculous charade. There's got to be something wrong with a man who says an answer is a "refusal" to "answer my two questions." I suppose you'd say the same to any persons ten times wiser than yourself simply because they won't answer with words you want to hear.

  You are free to show me to be in the wrong.

  You certainly are in the wrong to define an answer as a "refusal" to answer.

  fjtoth
• 
  343

  I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

  the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

  now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  fjtoth

  Terry,

  Jesus said concerning himself and others, "You worship what you do not know. We know what we worship!" (John 4:22)

  The apostle Paul wrote: "From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead." (Romans 1:20-22)

  Your musings are interesting only to a point. Persons who have experienced answered prayer and other aspects of a relationship with God would have more positive and, I believe, weightier things to say.

  fjtoth
• 
  343

  I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

  the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

  now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

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  fjtoth

  Burn

  If you base your beliefs in the Bible as I do, you should at least know why the Bible can be used as a rule of faith. You apparently do not.

  That's quite an assertion. Where is the evidence that I don't know "why the Bible can be used as a rule of faith"? Now's the time for you to be honest, Burn. What is your answer?

  fjtoth
• 
  343

  I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

  the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

  now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

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  fjtoth

  Burn,

  You may as well know I've gone as far as I'm going to go in answering your two questions. If an honest answer makes me dishonest in your view, I think you have problems with yourself.

  fjtoth