Posts by fjtoth

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

fjtoth

Lovelylil,

It isn't scholarly to claim that the "us" in Genesis is a reference to Jesus. For example, the New International Version Study Bible in a footnote on Genesis 1:26 says, "us . . . our . . . our. God speaks as the Creator-King, announcing his crowning work to the members of his heavenly court (see 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8; see also 1Ki 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jer. 23:18)."

On Genesis 11:7, a footnote says, "let us . . . God's 'Come, let us' from above counters proud man's 'Come, let us' (v.4) from below."

The footnote for Isaiah 6:8 says, "for us. The heavenly King speaks in the divine council. As a true prophet, Isaiah is made privy to that council, as were Micaiah (1 Ki 22:19-20) and Jeremiah (23:18,22). Cf. Ge 1:26; 11:7; Am 3:7."

Other reference works speak similarly.

fjtoth

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

fjtoth

Burn,

How can you say the use of "full-color pictures, nice layout, lots of quotes and citations" is "dangerous" when your unnecessarily long dialogue between Dan and Mike is filled with illustrations and comparisons, some of which present a distorted view?

What I think is distorted are some of the denials you use. For example, there are three-headed gods among the ancient pagans, and non-trinitarians compare those three-headed gods with the Catholic and Protestant Trinity. But if, as you say, the God of the Bible is a Trinity, why in the Bible are there no hints of him having three heads? God is always spoken of as "He," never as "They".

The dialogue admits that church and pagan gods with three heads are similar, but you say the pagans were portraying three gods whereas the churches have only one God in mind. Then why does church artwork use such pagan representations? Why deny that the teaching is confusing, unreasonable and unscriptural? If Trinitarians worship only one God, why do they use illustrations that pagans employ to portray three gods? It would seem that Trinitarians bow before three gods, after all, and not the God who was worshipped as the one true God by the Jews. At John 4:22, Jesus said regarding himself and the Jews of his day, "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews." Jesus our Savior worshiped, not a Trinity, but the same unitary God that all other godly Jews worshiped. (John 20:17)

To illustrate that three can mean "one," you refer to a family where several persons compose "one" family. In other words, your Trinitarian god is a committee of three persons. But the Bible doesn't teach that God is a family or a committee. Rather it says that he is alone, by himself, that there is none else, that he is one, that there is none beside Him, etc. (Isaiah 43:10, 11; 44:8, 24; 45:5, 6, 21, 22; 46:9) Many times in the Bible He is called the Holy One, but He is never called the Holy Three. (Isaiah 41:14; 49:7)

fjtoth

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

fjtoth

Sirona,

If Jesus is "a god" and Jehovah is "God" - is Jesus a false god or a true god?

How is your question any different from the following? "If Jesus is 'God' and Jehovah is 'God' -- Is Jesus a false 'God' or a true 'God'?" We could also ask, "If God labeled Moses as 'God,' was Moses a false 'God' or a true 'God'? (Exodus 4:16; 7:1)

All through the Bible, God is addressed as "You" and referred to as "He" (singular person). It should be noted that there are examples of a singular "them" and a singular "they" in Bible Hebrew. This singular "them" and "they" are brought into English by the King James Version, as in Deuteronomy 17:5: "Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die." The verse indicates only one guilty person. Otherwise it would say "that man and that woman." But in specifying the punishment, it uses "them" and "they". If the one God were composed of more than one Person, it seems only reasonable (and scriptural) that regularly he would be called "Them" or "They," and not "He".

fjtoth

14

HUGH REIMER;WHO WAS HE?

by badboy in

jw
friends

any ideas?

fjtoth

Board of Directors of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania. (Left to right) Lyman Swingle, Thomas J. Sullivan, Grant Suiter, (Sec’y.-Treas.), Hugo Reimer, Nathan H. Knorr (President), Fred W. Franz (Vice-President), Milton G. Henschel. 1950s

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"How The Governing Body Is Organized" - WT May 15 2008

by BluesBrother in

i know this was covered in fokyc's posting of the whole mag, but i felt it was worth showing seperately.

it gives an insight into how they work these days.. .

fjtoth

flipper: Unless things have changed in the past few months, there are no members of "the great crowd" on the GB. Frank

14

HUGH REIMER;WHO WAS HE?

by badboy in

jw
friends

any ideas?

fjtoth

When I was a little kid living near the Society's Mountain Farm in New Jersey, Hugo Riemer was like a saint in my view. He came to our Kingdom Hall once in awhile to give a Saturday night talk as well as the public talk on Sunday. He stayed at our home a few times. He was sort of like a grandfather who took an interest in the spiritual progress of young people, and his encouragement had a lot to do with my applying for Bethel some years later.

Soon after I was able to drive, he came for a visit by train. At the end of his visit, I drove him to the train station. After the train pulled away and I returned to my car, I found that he forgot his Bible. It was a large leather-bound American Standard Version just loaded with many hand-written notes on every page. I felt this man really was into the Bible like no one I had ever met. I took the following day off from my "pioneering" to drive to Brooklyn so he could have his Bible. He wasn't in, but the woman at the reception desk said she would see to it that he received it. Less than a week later I received a thank-you card from him.

Not many years later I was accepted for Bethel. There I saw Hugo as a man's man and as an old-timer who everybody respected, even Nathan Knorr the president. He had a very deep voice. Occasionally I saw Fred Franz and Hugo walking together and sharing in conversation. Hugo seemed to have a high regard for Ulysses Glass. One day I was alone with Hugo and Knorr in an elevator. I watched as Hugo put his hand on Knorr's shoulder and said in his slow and steady drawl, "The Lord has put a heavy load upon you, my son. I know he daily gives you the wisdom and spirit to carry such a load. Bless you." It struck me that he and some other old-timers often said "the Lord" instead of "Jehovah." Also, I had never seen anyone else dare to put his hand on Knorr's shoulder in a fatherly or big brother way. In my estimation, Hugo was a man's man at Bethel. I felt a great loss when he passed away.

Frank
http://formerjw.homestead.com

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