Posts by fjtoth

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

fjtoth

yucca,

you have one egg. Theres the shell the yoke and the white, in one egg.

How is your illustration applicable to three distinct persons? Is the shell a person? Is the yoke a person? Is the white a person?

Your illustration is similar to the one about water. Water can be gaseous, liquid or solid (as ice). But how can anyone see "three persons in one God" in such a loony illustration? Neither gas, nor water, nor ice are persons!

I think your illustration goes to show just how ridiculous the Trinity really is. There is no logical way to explain it, let alone illustrate it. The closest Trinitarians have come is to show a person with three heads, a real mockery of God if ever there was one!
___________________________________________________________________

Oops! Sorry, Reniaa. I should have checked for other entries before I posted my own. Well, I guess repetition is good for emphasis. I appreciate your reasoning and good expressions.

fjtoth

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

fjtoth

Terry,

Dispute with me if you wish about thousands. All I can tell you is you've never visited a seminary library. More books have been written about Jesus Christ than about any other person. You will probably dispute that too, but it's easy to check out. Ask your local librarian.

I wonder why you think it's okay to frown on Christian "experience" as merely subjective when the most that can be said of your own views is that they are highly subjective. I didn't use the word, but the point of my last entry to you was that your views about the Bible and Jesus Christ are not based upon any credible evidence or sources. Bible believers have at least millions of supporters on their side who can verify that faith in God doesn't go unrewarded. On your side are billions who never put that kind of faith to the test in order to see for themselves.

You wrote:

Saul of Tarsus may well have had a personal experience. But, his invention of Christianity has the ring of hallucination and neo-Platonism more than it has evidentiary verismilitude.

Since that is your opinion, an opinion that is humourous to many who have put the Bible to the test in their lives, couldn't it also be said that you yourself are experiencing the hallucinations you mention? I'm not saying that to be mean or condescending. I just hope you will be honest in your appraisal of yourself.

fjtoth

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

fjtoth

Terry and Sirona,

There are thousands of scholars who disagree with you. If you don't look to the Bible for authority, who or what is your authority? It's easy to sit back and pontificate on what you think is the truth, but that doesn't make it so.

Persons who have never experienced a bonafide relationship with Jesus Christ and his Father cannot know the genuineness of the Bible until they do. They cannot know the profound firsthand knowledge of getting prayers truly answered nor undergo the thrilling sensation of having the spirit of God in their lives.

fjtoth

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

fjtoth

Burn,

No. We beliee that God is one being. I have already said this several times on this thread.

Apparently you aren't aware of how other Trinitarians speak of God. In conversations I've had with pastors and missionaries, in books I've read, and in thousands of occurrences on the internet, the triune (3 member) God has been referred to as "the Divine Three." That is in sharp contrast to the Bible which always speaks of God as "One" and never as "Three".

Frank

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

fjtoth

Sirona,

Is Jesus a true god or a false god?

Your question is a real puzzler to those of us who can't conscientiously accept the theory of the Trinity. I would think you would see the answer in the following questions, and I can hardly understand why you don't:

1. God assigned Moses to be God to Aaron and Pharaoh. Was Moses a true god or a false god? (Exodus 4:16)
2. The angels and the judges of Israel were called "God" (Exodus 21:6; 22:8; Psalms 8:5; 82:1, 6). Were the God-appointed angels and judges true gods or false gods?

If men and angels who ranked lower on the scale of God's servants than Jesus were called "God," why is there a problem with Jesus himself being called "God"?

What Trinitarians overlook, in my view, is the Biblical law of agency. As stated in The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself." According to that principle, God the Father has the right to appoint others to represent him as God and to speak to others as if they were God himself. Moses was not God, but we read: "Then the LORD said to Moses, 'See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.'" (Exodus 7:1)

The angel of the Lord was not God, but he bore the authority of God's own Name. God said, "Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him." (Exodus 23:21)

To an even higher degree than the angels, Jesus was "given" absolute authority to act for the One God, his Father. He said, "All authority has been given me." (Matthew 28:18) Jesus did not always possess that authority. He said: "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father." (Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22) Also, "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand." (John 3:35)

Jesus will not always possess the authority God has "handed over" to him or placed "into His hand." "For He has put all things under His feet. But when He says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:27, 28)

And Jesus has not alway been Christ, Lord and God in the sense I've just explained. The angel Gabriel in his announcement of Christ’s birth told Mary that Jesus "will be great and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:32,33) Jesus was not born as a "great" God. No, the angel said he "will be great." Years later, Peter stated: "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. ... Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified." (Acts 2:22, 23, 36)

There is only one Almighty God, namely, "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:3) Second in command, according to the Biblical law of agency, is the One he has anointed and appointed to be his special agent, his own Son born to Mary.

fjtoth

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

fjtoth

jwfacts,

Early Christians had to develop the Trinity or some similar teaching, because monotheistic Jews could not possible worship two Gods - God the Father, and Jesus - hence the concept fusing of the two as a single entity.

Trinitarians say God is a Divine Three, not a Divine One. Jews and Muslims are in agreement that Christianity as practiced today is not a monotheistic religion. Most Jews and Muslims reject Christianity, and a prime reason is the Trinity teaching. Though Trinitarians can't seem to fathom it, Jews and Muslims see clearly that Trinitarians do not worship the unitary God of Abraham, Moses and the nation of Israel. Trinitarians also can't seem to fathom that Jesus was not a Trinitarian and that he worshiped the same God of the Old Testament who was worshiped by faithful Jews and proselytes. I believe Jesus would say to Trinitarians, "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews." (John 4:22)

So how has the teaching of the Trinity helped the Jews, as you claim?

fjtoth

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

fjtoth

Mouthy,

Phil 2:7 When He emptied himself. ? Would that not be a humbling gesture ?

Yes, and that is exactly what is meant when it says he took on "the form of a bond-servant." He never was a bond-servant or slave (doulous), but he acted as if he was one by his meekness and humility. A bond-servant is forced into humility, but Jesus was meek and humble by choice, not force.

fjtoth

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

fjtoth

Satanus,

'Course, i know that it's beyond your jw trained, logic based mind to comprehend.

I greatly admire your immeasurable humility. No wonder you're so full of infinitesimal and incalculably minute wisdom!

fjtoth

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

fjtoth

Deputy Dog,

I asked where the Bible says "God" humbled himself to become a man. All you quoted was a text about someone who was "in the form of God."

Jesus was indeed in the image or form of God, but he was not God himself. The word for "form" simply means "image," "impression," or "appearance" as shown by lexicons and by examing its other appearances in the New Testament. In Mark 16:12, we're told that Jesus appeared in a different "form." He wasn't another person or being, but he simply took on the appearance of another. In Philippians 2:7, it says Christ took "the form of a bond-servant," but Christ was never a bond-servant or doulos (Greek). He was sent to be our Lord and Master. In the parable of the landowner (Matthew 21:33-46), Jesus showed he was God's Son and not a doulos like all others who were sent by God. If Jesus was "in the form of" a bond-servant, yet was never actually a bond-servant, how can it be argued that "in the form of" God means that Jesus was actually God himself?

Adam was created in the image of God, and Jesus is the second Adam, the image of God as man was intended to be. (1 Corinthians 15:45) The apostle Paul saw man as "the image and glory of God." (1 Corinthians 11:7) He wrote of "the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (2 Corinthians 4:4) Jesus is so much the image of God that he could say "If you have seen me you have seen the Father." (John 14:9) Jesus was not the Father, but he resembled him or was in the "form" or appearance of the Father.

So, again I ask, "Where does the Bible say 'God' humbled himself to become a man?"

fjtoth

11

Anyone Here from Wisconsin?????

by superman in

jw
friends

looks like a few of you here are from wisconsin!

if your from wisconsin(but want to keep your id secret cause you are still in the org) feel free to send me a private message.

maybe one day we can have a great big apostafest in the great "cheese" state.

fjtoth

Around 1970, my wife and I lived in Antigo for about 2 years. I often think about the hospitality and friendships we enjoyed there, both in the congregation and in "the field." Great cheese country!

fjtoth