and just how do you know that it isn't Bellatucadnos who is kissing you each morning the sun rises and Cathubodva each time it sets?
Ravyn
Posts by Ravyn
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151Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...
by logansrun ini'm going to be a man of few words here.
christianity, in it's truest, fundamentalist form, promotes an unhealthy and non-productive victim mentality.
the christian feels helpless on his own -- condemned by sin and absolutely unworthy.
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151
Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...
by logansrun ini'm going to be a man of few words here.
christianity, in it's truest, fundamentalist form, promotes an unhealthy and non-productive victim mentality.
the christian feels helpless on his own -- condemned by sin and absolutely unworthy.
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Ravyn
.org
Ravyn
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151
Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...
by logansrun ini'm going to be a man of few words here.
christianity, in it's truest, fundamentalist form, promotes an unhealthy and non-productive victim mentality.
the christian feels helpless on his own -- condemned by sin and absolutely unworthy.
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Ravyn
startingover--yes! the snake is the only one who didn't lie.
Little Toe---what makes you believe death is something to fear or sting? I never can figure out why Christians who supposedly look forward to living in Heaven after death are so hung up on dying being so terrible.
I have found christianity to be dark and gloomy and sad. It tells you that you are never good enough and will die. and only if you are good enough will you get anything else. all based on this Genesis story that does not even say what churches claim it does. and for the ransome thing---yes it is a victim mentality. always needing someone else to save you. how can this be in the image of god?
humans had life before the whole forbidden fruit episode. this is like saying thank you to the guy who burns your house down for knocking on your door and telling you first so you can get out.
only if you insist that death is the end of it do you fear death and feel it stings. how much comfort does christianity give to those who lose loved ones in death? obviously not enough. don't you think it is supremely selfish of us to wish our beloved was back with us suffering with cancer rather than living in heaven totally happy? what kind of faith is that? And I dont buy the human being selfish and flawed to feel that way--if christianity was worth anything it would atleast engender enough faith and hope to overcome that so-called human tendency! after all didnt christ supposedly conquer all that? so where is the proof of it in his followers?
I believe life once lived is never non-existant. death is only the portal to the next thing. it is fearful only to the extent that it is unknown. and I believe life goes on. and it does not depend on someone else to continue. It MAY have depended on someone else to start it, but once set in motion it was not flawed or defective and in need of a savior.
Ravyn
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50
Ten Commandments in Courthouse
by rem inoh, yeah, your god's law... as if your religion and god is the only one out there.
good advice, but it's pretty obvious.
10. you shall not covet your neighbor's house; you .
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Ravyn
yes I know KGB---but if freedom is relative it isn't freedom.
Ravyn
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39
The Scriptures
by KGB inthe scriptures are some of the oldest books in the world known to man with dates included now how do you suppose that can be, that these books have survived this long, many thousands of years ?
hmmmmmm i don't see any other book on the shelf as long as this book not even any other history book as far as that goes, now i wonder why a book that supposedly is nothing more than a lie or uninspired as some of you put it would survive that long.
i wonder how christianity has lasted as long as it has if it is all just a lie.
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Ravyn
I must be invisible today--nothing I post is showing up on my end of it...here goes again: (this is the page from the link I posted that I cannot see)
. [shi] 100 CEo.c. Nag Hammadi Scriptures.date
Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Baha'i.
Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism.
Confucianism, Taoism, Shinto.
Other
5000 BCE + 4004 (Sunday 23 October) Bishop Usshers' (1581-1656) date for Biblical creation of the world based on O.T. Chronology. According to Ussher, Adam and Eve were driven from Paradise on Monday 10 November 4004 BC. Ussher was Archbishop of Armagh, Primate of All Ireland, and Vice-Chancellor of Trinity College in Dublin [chr].
According to John Lightfoot (1602-1675), Vice-Chancellor of Cambridge University and a contemporary of Ussher, man was created on "October 23, 4004 B.C., at nine o'clock in the morning" [chr].4,320,000,000 Creation of Universe by Brahma (Modern Hindu). The Rig-Veda has three hymns on the subject of Creation. See Rig-Veda 10:cxxix, Rig-Veda 10:cxxx, and Rig-Veda 10:cxc. [hin]. 14,000,000,000 Big Bang.
14,000,000,000 -300,000 yrs. after the Big Bang, protons and electrons separate.
14,000,000,000 -? yrs. The universe cools unevenly
5,000,000,000: Sun forms.
3,000,000,000 Earth cools and life on Earth begins.
70,000,000 Dinosaurs die out.
2,000,000 Astralopithecines emerge in Southern Africa.
70,000 Ice age begins.
55,000 First inhabitants of Australia.
15,000 Paleolithic cave paintings.
10,000 Paleo-Indians enter America.
9,500 Ice age ends, catastrophic worldwide sea level rise (100 meters?). Black Sea floods, thought to be origin of Ancient Near East Flood story.
9500 Plato's date for the sinking of Atlantis.
8500-6300 Domestication of sheep, cattle, pigs and goats.
6000+ Mother Goddess worshipped in Europe, Near East. [wic].
5000 Beginning of agriculture in Near East.
4000 (trad.) Overthrow of Matriarchy [wic].4000 BCE 3760 start of Jewish year count. 3201 Beginning of Kali Yuga, the current (and most evil) age [hin]. o.c. I Ching [cfu]. 3100 o.c. Pyramid Texts [egy]. 3000 BCE 2953-2838 Chinese Emperor Fu Hsi, produced first w.v. of I Ching [cfu].
2300-1000 Period described in Shu Ching (Book of History) [cfu].2494-2345 Pyramid Texts [egy]. 2000 BCE 2000-1900 Abraham, b. in Ur, according to Bible lived to age of 175.
1500-1350 Moses, trad. founder of Judaism; the Exodus from Egypt.
1500 Zoroaster/Zarathustra, o.c. Gathas, Avesta [zor].
1491 (trad.) According to Bishop Ussher, the date of the Biblical flood. The Ark touched down on Mt. Ararat on 5 May 1491 BC (a Wednesday) [chr].
1200 Origin of Judaism, o.c. of O.T., starting with the Torah (the first 5 books).1750 Collapse of Indus Valley Civilization.
1500 Indo-Europeans invade India. Vedic Culture. [hin].
1550-1450 o.c. Rig-Veda, Sama-Veda and Yajur-Veda [hin].1143 w.v. of I Ching by King Wen and Duke of Chou. [cfu] 1800 Enuma Elish, Bablyonian Creation Myth. [ane]
1792 Hammurabi ruler in Bablyon, auth. of Code of Hammurabi, earliest legal codex.
1760 Gilgamesh Epic.[ane]
1600 Orig. Egyptian Book of the Dead. (Book of Coming Forth by Day).
1500 (ca.) Volcanic destruction of Thera, thought to be the origin of Atlantis story.
1194 Fall of Troy (events described in Iliad/Odyssey).
1100 (ca.) Rise of Mayan culture.1000 BCE 990-922 King Solomon.
950 o.c. Torah/Pentateuch, Song of Songs.1000 o.c. Atharva Veda [hin]. 1000-500 Shih Ching (Book of Odes) [cfu]. 800 BCE 740 O.T. Book of Isaiah. 800-700 Brihad-Aranyaka and Chandogya Upanishads [hin].
800-400 Aranyakas, Brahmanas and Upanishads [hin].800 or 700 Homer (?): Illiad and Odyssey.
800: Hesiod: Works and Days, Theogony700 BCE 700 Books of Deuteronomy, Joshua, Samuel. (O.T.)
628-551 Zarathustra/Zoroaster
600 Babylonian Exile [jud]700 o.c. Ramayana [hin].
600 w.v. Rig Veda [hin]650 o.c. Tao te Ching. 664-525 Rev. Egyptian Book of the Dead 600 BCE 520 Books of Zechariah, Isaiah. (O.T.) 599-527 (trad.) Mahavira, founder Jainism.
563-483 Buddha (b. April 8, 563 BCE).
540 w.v. Mahabharata [hin].
540-468 (hist.) Mahavira, founder Jainism.
500 o.c. Angas [jai].580-500 (trad.) Lao-tzu, founder of Taoism. 551-479 Confucius (K'ung tzu), founder of Confucianism.
520 (trad.) Tao-te Ching [tao].610-570 Sappho. 500 BCE w.v. Gensis, Exodus, Numbers. (O.T.) 480-390 (alt.) Lao tzu.
409 w.v. Confucian Canon.400 BCE Books of Proverbs, Job (O.T.)
350 w.v. Song of Songs (O.T.).
330 Alexander destroys old Avesta. [zor]300 w.v. Mahabharata, Bhagavad-Gita. [hin] 371-289 Mencius (Meng-tzu). [cfu]
369-286 Chuang-tzu. [tao]
350 (hist.) Tao-te Ching. [tao].
340 Writings of Chuang-tzu. [tao]360 Critias by Plato: contains story of Atlantis. 300 BCE Book of Jonah (O.T.)
285 Septuagint, first Greek trans. of the O.T.250 Abhidharma, part of the Tripitaka. [bud]
240 Dhammapada canonized by Asoka. [bud]
200 w.v. Atharva Veda. [hin]250 w.v. Tao te Ching. [tao]
213 Emperor Ch'in Shih burns books, including Confucian, Taoist texts and the Five Classics. [cfu]200 BCE 200-120 early Mishnah [jud].
164 Book of Daniel (O.T.).
160 O.T. Apocrypha: Tobit, 1 Esdras, Enoch, others.
150 Early Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls).150 Yoga Sutras of Patanajali. [hin] I Ching commentaries, Rev. Chinese Classics. [cfu] 100 BCE 5-7 (ca.) b. of Jesus, founder of Christianity. Ramayana of Valmiki. [hin]
Ceylonese Tipitaka [bud].86 Rev. Shu Ching (Book of History), Shih Ching (Book of Odes). [cfu] 47 First burning of the Library of Alexandria (by Romans). including works of Sappho, and possibly ancient manuscripts and maps from unknown Ice Age civilizations. 1 CE 1-33 (trad.) Jesus. Events described in the first four N.T. books.
33 (trad.) either April 3, 30 CE or April 7, 33 CE: the Crucifixion.
30-96 New Testament.
50-63 (N.T.) Colossians, Philemon, Ephesians, Philippians.
60-80 (N.T.) Acts of the Apostles.
68 Destruction of Qumran community. (Dead Sea Scrolls).
70 (N.T.) Gospel of Mark.
80 (N.T.) Gospel of Matthew.
80 (N.T.) Gospel of Luke.
90 (N.T.) Gospel of John.
81-96 o.c. Revelation of St. John.Diamond Sutra, Heart Sutra. [bud]
65 Entry of Buddhism into China.o.c. Kojiki, Nihongi
100 Synod of Jamnia, Can. of O.T. [chr]
150 N.T. Apocrypha. [chr]
Mishna.[jud]
o.c. Sepher ha Zohar [jud].166 Buddhism formally established in China.
Lotus Sutra, Buddha-Charita of Ashvagosha. [bud]150 w.v. Shu Ching (Book of History). Shih Ching (Book of Odes). [cfu] 200 CE Can. of Tao te Ching. [tao]Mayan Classical Phase (to 900 CE), o.c. Popul Vuh.300 CEDenkart in Pahlavi.
(to 14th Cent.) comp. of Midrash.
300-400 w.v. Nag Hammadi Scriptures in Coptic.
350 w.v. Avesta in Pahlavi.
350 Jewish Talmund and Gemara.
325 Council of Nicea, Can. of Christian Bible.(to 13th Cent.) Puranas [hin]. 365-408 Burning of Sibylline Books.
391 Second burning of library at Alexandria (by Christians).400 CEBabylonian Talmund [jud].
401 Confessions of St. Augustine. [chr]
404 Cod. of the Vulgate (Latin Bible).w.v. Angas in Prakrit [jai].
400-450 Cod. of the Abhidharma (Tripitaka) [bud]. 500 CE.550-950 Bundahishn. [zor]
570-632 Muhammed, founder of Islam.538-552 Buddhism reaches Japan. 550 Last temple to Isis (at Phiae) closes.
(to 7th Cent.) o.c. Eddas.600 C.E. 610 w.v. Qur'an. [isl]
630 First Hadith. [isl]
644-656 Can. of Qur'an. [isl] (to 9th Cent.) o.c. Welsh Mabinogion.
642 Third (and final) destruction of Library of Alexandria (by Moslems).700 C.E. 760 o.c of Bardo Thödol (Tibetean Book of the Dead). [tib]712 w.v. Kojiki. [shi]
720 w.v. Nihongi. [shi]
742 Can. of Writings of Chuang-tzu. 800 C.E.Sepher Yetzirah [jud].
Can. of Hadith [isl].
Shikand Gumani Vazar [zor].868 Diamond Sutra is first book printed in China [bud]. w.v. Poetic Edda900 C.E.Bundahishn. [zor]Agamas [hin].
946 Start of Tibetan calendar, Kalachakra Tantra [tib].927 Yengiski [shi].950 (trad.) Necronomicon of Abdul Alhazred.1000 C.E.1054 Schism between East and West Church [chr].1016-1100 Naropa [tib]
1039-1123 Milarepa [tib] 1100 C.E. 1150 Kuo-an Shih yuan's Ten Pictures of the Ox. [bud]1175-1120 compilation of Confucian Canon by Chu Hsi.1179-1241 Snorri Sturlson (auth. Prose Edda, Heimskringla).1200 C.E.1270-1300 w.v. of Sepher ha Zohar by Moses de Leon.1222-1282 Nichiren [bud].
1236 Dogen, founds Soto School of Zen [bud]. 1220 Prose Edda.1300 C.E.1306-21 Divine Comedy by Dante.
1397-1468 Johannes Gutenberg. patron saint of etexts. o.c. Key of Solomon.
1300-1325 w.v. White Book of Rhydderch (Mabinogion).
1375-1425 Author of Red Book of Hergest (Mabinongion).1400 C.E.1456 First p.v. Vulgate Bible by Gutenberg.
1463 first Latin translation of Corpus Hermeticum.
1483-1546 Martin Luther chr. reformer.1440-1518 Kabir, Isl. Mystic.
1469-1538 Guru Nanak, founder of Sikhism. 1486 Malleus Malificarum: textbook for witch-hunters.1500 C.E.1517 M. Luther's 95 Theses.
1522 N.T. Translated into German by M. Luther.
1525 N.T. Translated into Englsh by W. Tyndale (1494-1536).
1534 p.v. entire Bible in German by M. Luther.
1535 p.v. Bible in English by Miles Coverdale (1488-1569).
1546 O.T. Apocrypha Can. by Catholic Church.
1560 Foxe's Book of Martyrs [chr].1539 (5th) Guru Arjan [skh]. 1503-1566 Nostradamus.
1554-1558 w.v. Popul Vuh.
1527-1608. Calls of Enoch, by J. Dee.1600 C.E.1618-9 Synod of Dordrecht. [chr]
1629 O.T. Apocrypha removed from Protestant Bible.
1674 Westminster Shorter Catechism.
1677 Paradise Lost/Regained by J. Milton.
1678 Pilgrim's Progress by J. Bunyan.Janam Sakhis [skh].
Final version of Adi Granth [skh] 1614 Rosicrucian Fama Fraternitatis.1700 C.E1789 Episcopal Book of Common Prayer.
1793 Thomas Paine's Age of Reason.Mahanirvana Tantra [bud].
1708 death of last Sikh guru. 1750 Walam Olum.1800 C.E1805-1849 Joseph Smith, founder Mormonism.
1817-1892 Baha'u'llah, (Mirza Husayn-'Ali), founder Baha'i, auth. Kitab-i-Iqan. [bhi]
1819-1850 the Bab (Mirza 'Ali-Muhammad) [bhi].
1823 Book of Mormon tr. Joseph Smith.
1859 Darwins' Origin of Species.
1871 Darwins' Descent of Man.
1891 Baltimore Catechism.1879-1910 Publication of the Sacred Books of the East by Max Müller, 50 volumes of English translations of primary texts of Eastern religions. [hin][bud][zor][cfu][isl]1882 Kojiki trans. into English by R.H. Chamberlain.[shi]
1896 The Nihongi trans. into English by W.G. Ashton.[shi] 1802-1884 Elias Lönnrot (auth. Kalevala).
1812-1820 English trans. of Walam Olum.
1835-1849 Kalevala, national epic of Finland, by Lönnrot.
1880 The Book of Oahspe.
1882 Atlantis, the Antediluvian World. by Donnelly.
1885 p.v. Walam Olum (Brinton).
1888 The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blatavsky.
1890-1922 The Golden Bough by Frazer.
1899 Aradia, Gospel of the Witches, by C. Leland. [wic]1900 CE.1909 Darwins' Voyage of the Beagle.
1934 Declaration of Barmen by K. Barth condems Hitler [chr].
1945 Discovery of Nag Hammadi Scriptures.
1947-56 Discovery of Qumran (Dead sea) scrolls.
1992 Dead Sea Scrolls published on microfiche. 1921 The Witch Cult in Western Europe by M. Murray. [wic]
1922 Last year books unambigiously entered public domain in U.S., per the 'Digital Millenium' Copyright Act of 1998.
1933 God of the Witches by M. Murray. [wic]
1948 The White Goddess by R. Graves. [wic]
1949-61 Gardnerian Book of Shadows [wic].
1968 Principia Discordia.
1985 TAZ by Hakim Bey.
80s and early 90s: Internet Book of Shadows.
3/9/1999 After three years of research, sacred-texts.com goes live. 2000 CE.????????????Key to Abbreviations
auth. = author.
b. = born
ca. = circa
Can. = Canonicalization
Cent.= century.
Cod. = Codification
comp. = composition.
d. = died
hist.= accepted historical date
o.c= date of original (typically, although not necessarily oral) composition.
Orig. = original
O.T. = Old Testament.
p.v. = printed version
Rev. = Revised.
trad. = traditional date
trans. = translation
w.v. = written version
[bhi] Baha'i
[bud] Buddhism
[tib] Tibetan Buddhism
[chr] Christianity
[cfu] Confucianism
[hin] Hinduism
[isl] Islam
[jai] Jainism
[jud] Judaism
[shi] Shinto
[skh] Sikhism
[tao] Taoism
[wic] Wicca
[zor] Zoroastrianism
[egy] Egypt
[ane] Ancient Near East
This page © copyright J.B. Hare, 1997-2001.
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50
Ten Commandments in Courthouse
by rem inoh, yeah, your god's law... as if your religion and god is the only one out there.
good advice, but it's pretty obvious.
10. you shall not covet your neighbor's house; you .
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Ravyn
for some reason this did not show up on the thread--when and if it does, please delete the duplicate.
thanks, Ravyn
I mean no offense to KGB or other Christians, however, religion of any kind has no business in government of any kind.(didnt Jesus run away from those who would make him King? and say something about his Kingdom being no part of the world? how did it get to this now?) Including this one. If Alabama wants to display the Ten Commandments then display them, on some church property, not on government property. To force this on people in the name of government degrades both the government and the religion! (with all the crap and corruption that goes on in politics do Christians really want to claim that?) And as far as this government being founded on Christianity--that is hogwash. Yes some of the founding fathers were Christian, but it was the idea of keeping religion out of politics that was the motivation for creating this country!
I appreciate this essay:
All Those Christian Presidents
[Portions of this were originally published in the American Rationalist.]
George Washington chopped down a cherry tree and would not tell a lie about it. Abraham Lincoln freed all the slaves. John Kennedy ushered into the White House all the glory of King Arthur's Camelot. And I know how to turn iron into gold.
We so often believe what we want to believe, ignoring clear-cut evidence as we do so. This is especially true of our country's supposed Christian origins. You can find this topic almost daily in op-ed pages all across the country, as Christian fundamentalists strive mightily to turn America into the Christian nation they claim it once was. The rhetoric flows fast and thick, and after a while some of us begin to believe it. A lie told often enough.
But we must look at our history objectively and resist the temptation to rewrite it to suit our opinions of what our heritage ought to have been. This admonition applies to freethinkers as well. If our nation indeed has Christian roots, then we'll just have to accept it and move on from there. So-does it?
The obvious first step in seeking out our nation's origins is to read its founding documents. In doing so, one is struck immediately by the total absence of any mention of Jesus, Christ or Christianity. There is also no reference to any Christian church-Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Calvinist-nothing. Not a word, nor a hint. If our Founding Fathers had intended to make this a Christian nation, they could not have hidden that intention more completely, or done a worse job of it.
The Declaration of Independence refers only to "Nature's God," "divine Providence" and a "Creator." All of these terms are so vague that they could be used comfortably by any faithful Muslim. Moreover, "Nature's God" was part of a passage that reads, ".the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them." You'll notice "God" got second billing. And not only did the Founders feel that the word "God" required an adjective, but the modifier they chose, "Nature's," couldn't be further removed from Christianity, and is in fact a precise definition of the God of Deism. (Deism: The belief that an unknowable God created everything, and then just walked away from it all, leaving all things to work out their own destinies, from atoms to apples.)
The U.S. Constitution, with its Bill of Rights, fares even worse in the Christian roots theory. No deity at all is mentioned, let alone a Christian one. The wildest, broadest interpretations imaginable cannot make the Constitution a Christian document. Its only mention of religion at all is where it forbids Congress from making any laws establishing or prohibiting it, and where it forbids religious tests for holding public office. So the Constitution's two brief mentions of religion strictly emphasize the need to keep it out of government.
So, then, where did all this "Christian nation" stuff come from? Our Founders went out of their way, very wisely, to avoid religion altogether. When freethinkers point to this shrieking silence about religion, Christians often attack that point by calling it an "argument from silence," one of the weakest arguments available. Generally speaking, arguments from silence are weak. In this case, though, it is one of the strongest arguments available. Other than bluntly and specifically repudiating Christianity, which they were also wise enough to avoid, the Founders could not have made more plain their desire to separate their new government from religion. Their silence about Christianity chimes loudly and clearly. If they had wanted to mention it, they would have. But they did not.
Deathbed and trauma-induced Christian conversions of historical figures are very popular grist for Christian mills. But are they true? The first Life of Washington, for example, from which we received the ridiculous cherry tree story, was written by Mason Weems, a Christian minister and therefore hardly an objective source. He presents Washington as a devout Christian. However, Washington's own diaries record that in 1769 he attended church only ten times, in 1770 nine times, in 1771 and 1772 six times, and in 1773 five times. Devout? Hardly. Such sporadic church attendance reflects, at best, a half-hearted attempt at conforming to social proprieties. It does not reflect a devout Christian.
John Adams was a Unitarian and flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation-obviously not a Christian. John Quincy Adams was likewise a Unitarian. The brilliant Thomas Jefferson was an out and out freethinker, and even urged his nephew to "Question with boldness even the existence of a God." These are not the words of a Christian.
James Madison early on studied to become a minister, but inexplicably did not. He expressed his indignation that people were being jailed in Virginia merely for criticizing the Episcopal Church, then the established Church of Virginia. The state laws of the time called for the death penalty for the following:
Speaking impiously of any articles of Christianity
Blaspheming God's name
Incorrigible cursing
(Surely this is a lesson in why not to allow theocracies. But why is it, anyway, that as soon as religions get a foothold, they immediately begin to persecute other religions?! Is oppression a necessary component of religious belief? It certainly rears its ugly head often enough to make you think so.) Madison of course went on to become a fierce advocate of church/state separation, and as an adult he simply refused to discuss religion at all. This fact alone makes his Christianity highly unlikely, living as he did in a society that smiled favorably on it.
Abraham Lincoln was a Deist in his youth, but was subsequently, and probably wisely, advised against advertising that fact if he wanted to succeed in politics. Legend has him converting to Christianity, though Lincoln himself never bothered to mention it to anyone. No one else mentioned it either until long after Lincoln's death. And no one agrees on where or when this supposed profound life-change took place. Depending on the source, it was either in Illinois or Washington, in 1848, 1858, 1862, or 1863. Such large discrepancies make "never" the most likely.
Lincoln's closest friend and law partner for over twenty years, William H. Herndon, claimed that Old Abe had no religious beliefs at all. Lincoln's own silence on the subject makes his friend's observation seem probable.
Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen and Thomas Paine were thoroughgoing freethinking Deists. Though not Presidents, they were strongly influential in forming our early republic. Thomas Paine was a champion of reason. Highly praised for The Rights of Man, he was equally vilified for his The Age of Reason. A glittering testimonial to freedom of thought, The Age of Reason excoriated Christianity. Paine bravely put pen to paper in a way that guaranteed censure in the year of 1795. He was praised for glorifying political freedom, but cursed for applauding religious freedom. It is to history's shame that this beacon of reason and rationality suffered so tragically at the end of his life. He was a man ahead of his times.
What most of us fail to recognize in these discussions, however, is that it wouldn't matter if every single President since Washington had been a Bible-toting, evangelical Christian. They weren't, of course, but even if they had been, it still would not change the secular foundation of our republic. Christians like to quote various Presidents or Supreme Court Justices who (quite incorrectly) have referred to our "Christian nation." But what do those quotes prove? I could quote Richard Nixon, but would that prove that ours was intended to be a nation of crooks?
Our Founders' clearly created a secular government that was carefully separated from religion. You can peer and probe and dissect to your heart's content, but you will never find Christ or Christianity referred to, even obliquely, in our admirable founding documents. It is because of those documents that Christians are free to worship as they please, a priceless freedom enjoyed in precious few countries throughout history. Christians should be grateful for that freedom and stop trying to force their beliefs, posthumously, on our Founders (and on the rest of us-today!). We the People are truly a diverse group, and this has always been one of our greatest strengths. We never were, were never intended to be, and hopefully never will be, a "Christian" nation.
1997 Judith Hayes
____________________________________________________________________________
William Edelen
February 02, 2003
February is known as "Presidents Month", due to birth dates. The right wing political and Christian psycho-ceramics (crack pots) will be babbling on about our "Christian" founding presidents. They will be putting out phony, fundamentalist, quotes that are laughable to any historically enlightened person with an I.Q. above 3.
I am going to tell you a true story. Before you read it, you may want to get another cup of strong coffee or else take two aspirin. Several years ago I wrote a column , during this month, about the fact that George Washington was not even remotely a Christian, but was a Deist at best. I had the column loaded with solid documentation, foot notes, references, and even the Encyclopedia Britannica that could all be checked out. Washington looked upon Christianity as gross superstition. The secretary to the Principal of a Christian school here in Palm Springs called me on the phone and said they demanded that I write another column and apologize. She said they had "proof" that Washington was indeed a Christian. I said..."oh really...what proof?" She said: "our calendar". Staggered, I said "your calendar...WHAT calendar.?" With obvious joy she said "the calendar that Pat Robertson sends out to Christian schools...it says right here on his birthday that he was a born again Christian before he died". Almost speechless I said to her..."you do not believe the scholars who write the Encyclopedia Britannica...but you believe Pat Robertson's calendar?" Almost with anger, she yelled over the phone "of course, we believe Pat Robertson...instead of the Encyclopedia written by liberals."
I give you my word before Wakan Tanka and the Tao that is a true story. The Christian psycho-ceramics are everywhere. Documented facts mean nothing to them.
The "Philadelphia Gazette" on June 17,1797, printed the entire 12 articles of the Treaty of Tripoli with the notice that the Senate and President John Adams has approved the Treaty UNANIMOUSLY. Not even one dissenting vote. Article Eleven of that printed treaty begins with this statement: "THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION."
The treaty was written with full approval by President George Washington, in the time it took to reach the Senate, John Adams had become President and it met, as stated above, with his full approval.
Another fact: American history scholars, writing for the "Encyclopedia Britannica" have stated that our first six presidents were Deists, and not in any sense, Christian.
Quote: "One of the embarrassing problems for the nineteenth century champions of the Christian faith was the fact that not one of the first six presidents of the United States was a Christian. They were Deists." (Chicago: Encyclopedia Britannica, 1968) vol.2, p.420. Mortimer J. Adler, editor in chief, "The Annals of America: Great Issues in American Life: A Conspectus."
In Deism there is no personal God, only an impersonal energy, force, providence, "natures" God. As for Jesus he had some good thoughts but was only a teacher, nothing more. As John Adams put it: "The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus has made a convenient cover for absurdity." Also in Deism the bible is nothing but literature and bad literature at that, filled with thousands of contradictions, superstitions and falsehoods. Jefferson called the bible a "dunghill". He threw out all of the Old Testament, all of Paul's writings calling them "rubbish", and with scissors cut out all mythology and folklore in the Gospels. He left only a few of the parables that had some significance, and called that his "bible". It is in the Smithsonian.
If you can read the English language you can go to your public library and read the Jefferson-Adams letters and listen to all of the jokes they made about Jesus, the Trinity and Christian doctrine. But those living in the world of the psycho-ceramics will never take the time to do serious study with world class scholars on the subject matter.
THOMAS JEFFERSON: Notes on Religion, passed in the Assembly of Virginia in the year 1786. quote: "Christian creeds and doctrines, the clergy's own fatal inventions, through all of the ages, has made of Christendom a slaughter house. What has been the effect of the coercion of Christianity? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
JOHN ADAMS: Letter F, Van per Kemp...quote: "Christian fables, myths, legends and tales, blended with Jewish myths, have made them the most bloody religion that has ever existed, filled with sordid fraud and superstition."
JAMES MADISON (father of the Constitution and Bill of Rights) in a speech to the General Assembly of Virginia, 1785...quote: "During 15 centuries, the legal establishment of Christianity has been on trial. What have been the fruits of that trial? Pride and Indolence in the clergy. Ignorance and servility in the laity; and in both clergy and laity, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
Presidents month, a celebration of Deism. The next time you hear some psycho-ceramic perverting and prostituting the religious beliefs of our Founding Presidents, you might remember the perfect definition of evil..."militant ignorance." Or maybe that genius, Goethe, said it better: "Nothing is more terrifying than ...ignorance in action."
William Edelen
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Ravyn
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39
The Scriptures
by KGB inthe scriptures are some of the oldest books in the world known to man with dates included now how do you suppose that can be, that these books have survived this long, many thousands of years ?
hmmmmmm i don't see any other book on the shelf as long as this book not even any other history book as far as that goes, now i wonder why a book that supposedly is nothing more than a lie or uninspired as some of you put it would survive that long.
i wonder how christianity has lasted as long as it has if it is all just a lie.
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Ravyn
there are plenty of other books as old and claiming to be god-inspired! and I have them on my bookshelf. check out this link:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/time/timeline.htm
and also:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/time/origtime.htm
The Vedas were written 300 years before the Torah and the IChing was written 2800 years before the Torah! I have both a copy of the Bhagavad Gita and the IChing on my bookshelf right next to a Bible.
This does not diminish the Bible, but it does present Christians as being intellectually dishonest that they cannot even acknowledge when their book was written as compared to other sacred texts. Really the biggest blemish to the Bible are the ones who claim it is something it is not and lose what it is.
Ravyn
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22
Believe almost nothing
by Brummie inbut tolerate everything that is harmless to tothers.. thats my religion.. whats yours?.
its took me a lifetime to learn tolerance and to be comfortable with it.
*smacks side of head*.
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Ravyn
my religion right now is:
if it works don't fix it, if it quits working and can't be fixed- find something else that works.
"oh Lord above give some of that sweet toxic love. sweet toxic love running thru my veins, it lifts me up, makes me insane."-- Boy George
Ravyn
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50
Ten Commandments in Courthouse
by rem inoh, yeah, your god's law... as if your religion and god is the only one out there.
good advice, but it's pretty obvious.
10. you shall not covet your neighbor's house; you .
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Ravyn
I mean no offense to KGB or other Christians, however, religion of any kind has no business in government of any kind.(didnt Jesus run away from those who would make him King? and say something about his Kingdom being no part of the world? how did it get to this now?) Including this one. If Alabama wants to display the Ten Commandments then display them, on some church property, not on government property. To force this on people in the name of government degrades both the government and the religion! (with all the crap and corruption that goes on in politics do Christians really want to claim that?) And as far as this government being founded on Christianity--that is hogwash. Yes some of the founding fathers were Christian, but it was the idea of keeping religion out of politics that was the motivation for creating this country!
I appreciate this essay:
All Those Christian Presidents
[Portions of this were originally published in the American Rationalist.]
George Washington chopped down a cherry tree and would not tell a lie about it. Abraham Lincoln freed all the slaves. John Kennedy ushered into the White House all the glory of King Arthur's Camelot. And I know how to turn iron into gold.
We so often believe what we want to believe, ignoring clear-cut evidence as we do so. This is especially true of our country's supposed Christian origins. You can find this topic almost daily in op-ed pages all across the country, as Christian fundamentalists strive mightily to turn America into the Christian nation they claim it once was. The rhetoric flows fast and thick, and after a while some of us begin to believe it. A lie told often enough.
But we must look at our history objectively and resist the temptation to rewrite it to suit our opinions of what our heritage ought to have been. This admonition applies to freethinkers as well. If our nation indeed has Christian roots, then we'll just have to accept it and move on from there. So-does it?
The obvious first step in seeking out our nation's origins is to read its founding documents. In doing so, one is struck immediately by the total absence of any mention of Jesus, Christ or Christianity. There is also no reference to any Christian church-Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Calvinist-nothing. Not a word, nor a hint. If our Founding Fathers had intended to make this a Christian nation, they could not have hidden that intention more completely, or done a worse job of it.
The Declaration of Independence refers only to "Nature's God," "divine Providence" and a "Creator." All of these terms are so vague that they could be used comfortably by any faithful Muslim. Moreover, "Nature's God" was part of a passage that reads, ".the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them." You'll notice "God" got second billing. And not only did the Founders feel that the word "God" required an adjective, but the modifier they chose, "Nature's," couldn't be further removed from Christianity, and is in fact a precise definition of the God of Deism. (Deism: The belief that an unknowable God created everything, and then just walked away from it all, leaving all things to work out their own destinies, from atoms to apples.)
The U.S. Constitution, with its Bill of Rights, fares even worse in the Christian roots theory. No deity at all is mentioned, let alone a Christian one. The wildest, broadest interpretations imaginable cannot make the Constitution a Christian document. Its only mention of religion at all is where it forbids Congress from making any laws establishing or prohibiting it, and where it forbids religious tests for holding public office. So the Constitution's two brief mentions of religion strictly emphasize the need to keep it out of government.
So, then, where did all this "Christian nation" stuff come from? Our Founders went out of their way, very wisely, to avoid religion altogether. When freethinkers point to this shrieking silence about religion, Christians often attack that point by calling it an "argument from silence," one of the weakest arguments available. Generally speaking, arguments from silence are weak. In this case, though, it is one of the strongest arguments available. Other than bluntly and specifically repudiating Christianity, which they were also wise enough to avoid, the Founders could not have made more plain their desire to separate their new government from religion. Their silence about Christianity chimes loudly and clearly. If they had wanted to mention it, they would have. But they did not.
Deathbed and trauma-induced Christian conversions of historical figures are very popular grist for Christian mills. But are they true? The first Life of Washington, for example, from which we received the ridiculous cherry tree story, was written by Mason Weems, a Christian minister and therefore hardly an objective source. He presents Washington as a devout Christian. However, Washington's own diaries record that in 1769 he attended church only ten times, in 1770 nine times, in 1771 and 1772 six times, and in 1773 five times. Devout? Hardly. Such sporadic church attendance reflects, at best, a half-hearted attempt at conforming to social proprieties. It does not reflect a devout Christian.
John Adams was a Unitarian and flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation-obviously not a Christian. John Quincy Adams was likewise a Unitarian. The brilliant Thomas Jefferson was an out and out freethinker, and even urged his nephew to "Question with boldness even the existence of a God." These are not the words of a Christian.
James Madison early on studied to become a minister, but inexplicably did not. He expressed his indignation that people were being jailed in Virginia merely for criticizing the Episcopal Church, then the established Church of Virginia. The state laws of the time called for the death penalty for the following:
Speaking impiously of any articles of Christianity
Blaspheming God's name
Incorrigible cursing
(Surely this is a lesson in why not to allow theocracies. But why is it, anyway, that as soon as religions get a foothold, they immediately begin to persecute other religions?! Is oppression a necessary component of religious belief? It certainly rears its ugly head often enough to make you think so.) Madison of course went on to become a fierce advocate of church/state separation, and as an adult he simply refused to discuss religion at all. This fact alone makes his Christianity highly unlikely, living as he did in a society that smiled favorably on it.
Abraham Lincoln was a Deist in his youth, but was subsequently, and probably wisely, advised against advertising that fact if he wanted to succeed in politics. Legend has him converting to Christianity, though Lincoln himself never bothered to mention it to anyone. No one else mentioned it either until long after Lincoln's death. And no one agrees on where or when this supposed profound life-change took place. Depending on the source, it was either in Illinois or Washington, in 1848, 1858, 1862, or 1863. Such large discrepancies make "never" the most likely.
Lincoln's closest friend and law partner for over twenty years, William H. Herndon, claimed that Old Abe had no religious beliefs at all. Lincoln's own silence on the subject makes his friend's observation seem probable.
Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen and Thomas Paine were thoroughgoing freethinking Deists. Though not Presidents, they were strongly influential in forming our early republic. Thomas Paine was a champion of reason. Highly praised for The Rights of Man, he was equally vilified for his The Age of Reason. A glittering testimonial to freedom of thought, The Age of Reason excoriated Christianity. Paine bravely put pen to paper in a way that guaranteed censure in the year of 1795. He was praised for glorifying political freedom, but cursed for applauding religious freedom. It is to history's shame that this beacon of reason and rationality suffered so tragically at the end of his life. He was a man ahead of his times.
What most of us fail to recognize in these discussions, however, is that it wouldn't matter if every single President since Washington had been a Bible-toting, evangelical Christian. They weren't, of course, but even if they had been, it still would not change the secular foundation of our republic. Christians like to quote various Presidents or Supreme Court Justices who (quite incorrectly) have referred to our "Christian nation." But what do those quotes prove? I could quote Richard Nixon, but would that prove that ours was intended to be a nation of crooks?
Our Founders' clearly created a secular government that was carefully separated from religion. You can peer and probe and dissect to your heart's content, but you will never find Christ or Christianity referred to, even obliquely, in our admirable founding documents. It is because of those documents that Christians are free to worship as they please, a priceless freedom enjoyed in precious few countries throughout history. Christians should be grateful for that freedom and stop trying to force their beliefs, posthumously, on our Founders (and on the rest of us-today!). We the People are truly a diverse group, and this has always been one of our greatest strengths. We never were, were never intended to be, and hopefully never will be, a "Christian" nation.
1997 Judith Hayes
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William Edelen
February 02, 2003
February is known as "Presidents Month", due to birth dates. The right wing political and Christian psycho-ceramics (crack pots) will be babbling on about our "Christian" founding presidents. They will be putting out phony, fundamentalist, quotes that are laughable to any historically enlightened person with an I.Q. above 3.
I am going to tell you a true story. Before you read it, you may want to get another cup of strong coffee or else take two aspirin. Several years ago I wrote a column , during this month, about the fact that George Washington was not even remotely a Christian, but was a Deist at best. I had the column loaded with solid documentation, foot notes, references, and even the Encyclopedia Britannica that could all be checked out. Washington looked upon Christianity as gross superstition. The secretary to the Principal of a Christian school here in Palm Springs called me on the phone and said they demanded that I write another column and apologize. She said they had "proof" that Washington was indeed a Christian. I said..."oh really...what proof?" She said: "our calendar". Staggered, I said "your calendar...WHAT calendar.?" With obvious joy she said "the calendar that Pat Robertson sends out to Christian schools...it says right here on his birthday that he was a born again Christian before he died". Almost speechless I said to her..."you do not believe the scholars who write the Encyclopedia Britannica...but you believe Pat Robertson's calendar?" Almost with anger, she yelled over the phone "of course, we believe Pat Robertson...instead of the Encyclopedia written by liberals."
I give you my word before Wakan Tanka and the Tao that is a true story. The Christian psycho-ceramics are everywhere. Documented facts mean nothing to them.
The "Philadelphia Gazette" on June 17,1797, printed the entire 12 articles of the Treaty of Tripoli with the notice that the Senate and President John Adams has approved the Treaty UNANIMOUSLY. Not even one dissenting vote. Article Eleven of that printed treaty begins with this statement: "THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION."
The treaty was written with full approval by President George Washington, in the time it took to reach the Senate, John Adams had become President and it met, as stated above, with his full approval.
Another fact: American history scholars, writing for the "Encyclopedia Britannica" have stated that our first six presidents were Deists, and not in any sense, Christian.
Quote: "One of the embarrassing problems for the nineteenth century champions of the Christian faith was the fact that not one of the first six presidents of the United States was a Christian. They were Deists." (Chicago: Encyclopedia Britannica, 1968) vol.2, p.420. Mortimer J. Adler, editor in chief, "The Annals of America: Great Issues in American Life: A Conspectus."
In Deism there is no personal God, only an impersonal energy, force, providence, "natures" God. As for Jesus he had some good thoughts but was only a teacher, nothing more. As John Adams put it: "The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus has made a convenient cover for absurdity." Also in Deism the bible is nothing but literature and bad literature at that, filled with thousands of contradictions, superstitions and falsehoods. Jefferson called the bible a "dunghill". He threw out all of the Old Testament, all of Paul's writings calling them "rubbish", and with scissors cut out all mythology and folklore in the Gospels. He left only a few of the parables that had some significance, and called that his "bible". It is in the Smithsonian.
If you can read the English language you can go to your public library and read the Jefferson-Adams letters and listen to all of the jokes they made about Jesus, the Trinity and Christian doctrine. But those living in the world of the psycho-ceramics will never take the time to do serious study with world class scholars on the subject matter.
THOMAS JEFFERSON: Notes on Religion, passed in the Assembly of Virginia in the year 1786. quote: "Christian creeds and doctrines, the clergy's own fatal inventions, through all of the ages, has made of Christendom a slaughter house. What has been the effect of the coercion of Christianity? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
JOHN ADAMS: Letter F, Van per Kemp...quote: "Christian fables, myths, legends and tales, blended with Jewish myths, have made them the most bloody religion that has ever existed, filled with sordid fraud and superstition."
JAMES MADISON (father of the Constitution and Bill of Rights) in a speech to the General Assembly of Virginia, 1785...quote: "During 15 centuries, the legal establishment of Christianity has been on trial. What have been the fruits of that trial? Pride and Indolence in the clergy. Ignorance and servility in the laity; and in both clergy and laity, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
Presidents month, a celebration of Deism. The next time you hear some psycho-ceramic perverting and prostituting the religious beliefs of our Founding Presidents, you might remember the perfect definition of evil..."militant ignorance." Or maybe that genius, Goethe, said it better: "Nothing is more terrifying than ...ignorance in action."
William Edelen
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Ravyn
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50
Ten Commandments in Courthouse
by rem inoh, yeah, your god's law... as if your religion and god is the only one out there.
good advice, but it's pretty obvious.
10. you shall not covet your neighbor's house; you .
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Ravyn
Neon: examples please?(not denying what you say--just don't see it around here!---"here" is Jerry Falwellville(Lynchburg, VA) home of Liberty University that will give out free 4 yr paid tuition scholarships if you send your kid to his Christian Academy High School all four years too.)
Sort of in the same ways that some public schools can teach courses in witchcraft, or can have courses in which students are required to act out features of Islamic worship, but if they simulated a Christian communion service, people would be up in arms over it.
BluesBrother- do a search on some of my old posts....these rabid fundys are in your face and would literally KILL or convert. They are as dangerous as any Al Qaida(sp?) or Hamas group out there.
Utopian--absofrigginlutely!
Ravyn
