Posts by logansrun

20

Are Elders Still "In"-----No Good?

by minimus in

jw
friends

what's your opinion of elders that are still in the organization but are starting to realize that what they thought was the truth really isn't?

let's say they know that the teachings, the prophecies, etc.

are not true----but for various reasons, are still in----does this make you feel they are hypocrites?

"Questions From Readers" or "Questions From Writers"?

by logansrun in

is it just me, or does the "questions from readers" segment in the watchtower these days sound phoney?

i know years ago they had the initials of the questioner along with their country of residence underneath their questions which seemed more, oh i don't know, realistic.

(the things people used to ask about!

Is it just me, or does the "Questions From Readers" segment in the Watchtower these days sound phoney? I know years ago they had the initials of the questioner along with their country of residence underneath their questions which seemed more, oh I don't know, realistic. (The things people used to ask about! By bugger take a look at what came in from the rank and file in the 50's and 60's!)

But now I notice two trends, which seem to have been going on for the last couple of decades:

1) Questions which seem like dry repetitions of longstanding WT dogma (Such as "Is it proper for Christians to celebrate birthdays?" -- what the hell?)

or

2) Questions which come up and oh-so-conveniently lead to a well calculated doctrinal or congregational adjustment.

Both types of inquiries seem "planted" by the writers of the article and not "real questions" from readers.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Bradley

PS -- I thought I'd throw in a less controversial question of my own for a change..hehe..

245

Are most people just plain stupid?

by logansrun in

what an audacious question!

" wow, bradley -- how could you stoop to such levels?

do you consider most people as simple sleepwalkers through life not paying much attention to reason, logic, science, history and a desire to understand?

logansrun

I'd like to clarify something about this thread:

The usage of the word "stupid" was not the best choice on my part. Perhaps, "ill-informed" or "willingly ignorant" would have been better.

People can change, of course. I once believed that the UN was satanic and that seven guys in the 1920's were a major fullfillment of Bible prophecy. Was I stupid? No. Ignorant? Most certainly!

Bradley

245

Are most people just plain stupid?

by logansrun in

what an audacious question!

" wow, bradley -- how could you stoop to such levels?

do you consider most people as simple sleepwalkers through life not paying much attention to reason, logic, science, history and a desire to understand?

logansrun

czar,

Your post was ridiculous and I will not respond to someone who calls themselves a "silverback." (PS -- you also show a very poor understanding of evolution. Read a book.)

LittleToe,

I'm turning into the anti-typical Minimus? God, I need to get a hobby.

The beer will be on me, btw.

Stacey,

No, on second thought I won't respond to you...

Aztec,

Thanks for the compliments. I wish they were true!

greatteacher,

Cheers!

Bradley

245

Are most people just plain stupid?

by logansrun in

what an audacious question!

" wow, bradley -- how could you stoop to such levels?

do you consider most people as simple sleepwalkers through life not paying much attention to reason, logic, science, history and a desire to understand?

logansrun

Czar of mischief,

Your response was literally chock-full of bad argumentation. Let me break it down for you:

The issue you have taken with pseudosciences like astrology is overly dismissive and all-encompassing. I read the horoscope, not because I think that the stars actually control my life, but because it is amusing, and there is usually advice in there that is good no matter who or what you are. Does that make me stupid, because I choose to read the horoscope and consider the advice given? If so, then I guess most of us ARE stupid, because most humanity reads their horoscope.

Most people read their horoscope? Really? Do you have some statistics to back that claim up?

Obviously I'm not saying that people who read their horoscope for the sheer fun of it without taking it seriously are stupid. You insinuate that. Straw man argument.

What about believing that God created the earth?To believe that a person sparked the rush of energy in the Big Bang and is guiding human development is merely to join over 90 percent of the earth's past, present, and future populations! In different forms, almost everybody believes the creation story, and almost everybody believes in a God. Doesn't make it true, but your evolution theory and causeless Universe theory don't make it UNtrue, either. Are we stupid, just because we like to think that God exists, and that we matter, and that somebody notices when we die? Or are we just adapting to reality? Does this adaptation mean that ALL believers in creation are stupid? Then I'm stupid, I guess. Along with most people.

Um, where did I say that ALL believers are stupid? I said that creationists and Christian fundamentalists may fall under that category but they do not encompass the totality of all believers in God or religion. This is also a straw man argument.

In the end, will they call you stupid because you believed in evolution someday?

I believe in evolution because of a prepoderance of evidence points unmistakeably in that direction. It is a robust and scientifically sound theory. Will certain specifics about evolutionary theory change due to new evidence? Most certainly. Will the whole of modern biology fall from place? Extremely unlikely.

Your condescending attitude reminds me of the man who retired from the British Patent Office in the late 1800's, because "Everything that could be invented had been invented."

Anecdotes don't count for much in debate.

Someday your willful dismissal of spirituality is going to catch up to you. It's such a fundamental part of human nature, that to suppress it, or pretend it is just a head game, is to be like that Brit. You are just not open-minded enough. In the end, it really is your loss.
So, who is stupid, then?

Gee, anyone get the impression czar has taken this way too seriously? And, where did I say all types of "spirituality" are stupid and to be dismissed? I believe that is another....straw man

Bradley

245

Are most people just plain stupid?

by logansrun in

what an audacious question!

" wow, bradley -- how could you stoop to such levels?

do you consider most people as simple sleepwalkers through life not paying much attention to reason, logic, science, history and a desire to understand?

logansrun

hillary step,

For example, you use the term 'average person'. What exactly is an average person? If such a beast exists, are you defining an average Westerner, African, Oceanic? There are a vast world of 'averages' out there.

Excellent point and a weakness in my post. I used the term "average person" simply based on two things: personal experience and opinion polls. Both data-collecting methods have their flaws. (Of course, being an American I am writing from an American perspective)

It is true that many, often through no fault of their own, do not live up to their intellectual potential. Often they have lacked opportunity, encouragment, money, food, medicine and other things that allows them to emerge from a less cognitive state.

What you say is true, but let's not be overly generous in shifting the blame. Opportunity really is there for people who want it -- last I checked the library didn't charge admission. There are a lot of reasons for the lack of thinking skills in the American public mind.

Human beings are not machines and do not behave with detached intelligence. It is true that some may deliberately chose to remain ignorant about certain matters, but that would not mean that they lack intellectuality. It may mean that they are just disinterested in a particular discipline.

Or that they just don't care? Lazy, perhaps? I'm not saying one way or the other but you do have to consider that argument as well (as I have considered yours).

Euphemism,

Excellent point on "multiple intelligences." Well noted. But, that doesn't change the face of the problem.

Bradley

PS -- Did you all know that illiteracy in America -- regardless of race -- is worse now than the 1940's?

35

When did the watchtower become a cult?

by Gadget in

from looking at various cult information, and warning signs of an unsafe group i beleive the jw's to be a cult, but how did they become one?

it started as a religious periodical in the 1870s, and somehow progressed to being a faith, a religion, and then from there progressed to become a cult.

when did this happen, and how?

logansrun

I don't think there is a sharp line seperating "cults" from "not a cult" groups. It's an evolution.

The early "Bible Students" exhibited some cult-like tendencies and flakey beliefs right from the beginning. Perhaps the "cultishness" of the JWs reached it's zenith when the mantle was given to Rutherford. Maybe they are more cult-like now than ever before. It's a very subjective question.

B.

245

Are most people just plain stupid?

by logansrun in

what an audacious question!

" wow, bradley -- how could you stoop to such levels?

do you consider most people as simple sleepwalkers through life not paying much attention to reason, logic, science, history and a desire to understand?

logansrun

ESTEE,

Soooo ... for clarity ... let me see if I got it ... 'cuz I might be jes plain stoopid too ...
You are okay logansrun ... and everyone around you is not okay ...?

*sigh*

That's not what I said at all. Re-read my posts.

B.

245

Are most people just plain stupid?

by logansrun in

what an audacious question!

" wow, bradley -- how could you stoop to such levels?

do you consider most people as simple sleepwalkers through life not paying much attention to reason, logic, science, history and a desire to understand?

logansrun

Hillar Step,

So I have to ask Brad, personally I do not think that people are 'just plain stupid' but am I right in thinking that you would define yourself as one of the more elightened ones in this world-view of yours? If so, why do you need to ask the question?

Admittedly, the title of this thread was written in such a way as to elicit response. As I mentioned, I do not think that people are simply "plain stupid" and that's that. I do believe the average person does not live up to their intellectual potential and simply chooses to remain in a cocoon of ignorance about many things.

For example: My mother is a pretty rational woman. In conversation with her the other day we started talking about human cloning. I said that identical twins are natures way of cloning. She wouldn't believe me. When I tried to explain why this is so my words went in one ear and out the other. Now, is she stupid? No. Is she willingly ignorant about a very important matter? Yes, I believe so.

We live in a world -- especially here in the US -- where most people believe in some form of pseudoscience that better educated people have long since debunked thoroughly. Why is this the case? Are they genetically programmed to be dumb? Again, I don't think that is the case. I believe there are cultural, societal and psychological reasons for peoples lack of intellectual grace.

In a book by Richard Dawkins I read recently he stated that the current understanding of science in the US is a "national educational disgrace." I couldn't agree more.

Do I consider myself one of the "enlightened ones"? Yes and no. I'm not an expert and there are subjects I'm dumber than a doornail in. (I also have a damned time with mathematics). All the same, I believe -- perhaps to no credit of my own -- that I at least recognize intelligence and a good argument. Maybe the JWs even had something to do with this.

Bradley

245

Are most people just plain stupid?

by logansrun in

what an audacious question!

" wow, bradley -- how could you stoop to such levels?

do you consider most people as simple sleepwalkers through life not paying much attention to reason, logic, science, history and a desire to understand?

logansrun

Brummie,

See thats just plain humanity, people believe different things and just because they dont fit your belief/unbelief system doesnt mean they are "just plain stupid"..

I didn't say that everyone who disagrees with me is "just plain stupid." Straw man.

thats just a miserable outlook. All those beliefs circulate and some are far out but each person is complex and is not simply made up of belief, there are many sides to a person and each of us have our dumb side, including you.

I agree.

Dont you think its just miserable to slam peoples beliefs rather than look for the other identifying marks of a person?

No. Ridding the world of pseudoscience and fundamentalist religion is a service to humanity.

The worlds got a lot of nice people in it, just seems you always want to slam anyone who believes differently to you.

A person can be very stupid and very "nice." And vice versa.

B.