Posts by logansrun

151

Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

by logansrun in

i'm going to be a man of few words here.

christianity, in it's truest, fundamentalist form, promotes an unhealthy and non-productive victim mentality.

the christian feels helpless on his own -- condemned by sin and absolutely unworthy.

logansrun

seven006,

Ah, but how do you define the word, definition?

hehe...j/k

Bradley

74

Then Leave.com

by SheilaM in

jw
friends

.

i love this website

http://www.asmincorp.com/thenleave/thenleave_001.htm

Free speech in the form of opposition to government policies is at the core of why the US even exists. If Thomas Jefferson were alive today and were to view that site I think he would be disgusted and horrified.

Bradley

PS -- I still think this country is in the top three on the planet. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, although we can always make things better.

151

Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

by logansrun in

i'm going to be a man of few words here.

christianity, in it's truest, fundamentalist form, promotes an unhealthy and non-productive victim mentality.

the christian feels helpless on his own -- condemned by sin and absolutely unworthy.

logansrun

Alan,

Your analysis of the ransom doctrine is one of crystal clarity. The arguments you make place the believer in the ransom into a corner that they simply cannot get out of. Brilliant.

Bradley

73

if you still believe in the bible ... please tell me why

by frenchbabyface in

why i can't anymore : sorry for my poor english, but i've tried hard !!

since the beginning of the time, till the 19th century and more, most of stories and songs for kids, was made to scary them with a moral at the end.

to me, the bible is one of kind of that type of book (for children we are inside).

logansrun

I think it's safe to say that the Bible, taken as a supernatural revelation, is one of the most pernicuous delsusions that humanity has had. Your post was excellent.

Bradley

28

JW and Christianity..

by cutenconfuzed422 in

hey, i'm new to this site, but i'm looking for the big differences between christianity and jehovah's witnesses.

i would like any information you have, and references to it if you have references.

thanks a lot.

logansrun

I believe it was Jim Penton who stated regarding fundamentalist Christians (conservatives, "born-agains", evangelicals) and JWs : "They're nothing but pups from the same bitch."

I agree. There are differences for sure, but the similarities far outweigh the differences.

Bradley

151

Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

by logansrun in

i'm going to be a man of few words here.

christianity, in it's truest, fundamentalist form, promotes an unhealthy and non-productive victim mentality.

the christian feels helpless on his own -- condemned by sin and absolutely unworthy.

logansrun

Gamaliel,

Interesting comments. You seem to be a very liberal Christian and I do not necessarily have any problem with that. You look at the Bible with non-literal eyes -- seeing the poetic truth instead of the literal falsities. Like I said, I see value in this. Unfortunately fundamentalism is all to strong in this country and on this board. I would have no problem living with Christians such as yourself as opposed to....

Borgfree,

I guess by the dictionary definition of victim, you were right when you said:
Wow. How is one not to feel like a victim because of a sentence of death? Read this statement ten times and see just how silly it it.
When thinking of victim I usually think of today's usage, like, ...people who stuff themselves daily on McDonalds are victims of a corporation, or, ...someone who smokes cigarettes all of their life despite warnings of their danger are victims of a corporation or some great conspiracy.

A victim also can be one who is unjustly treated by others, namely, the Judeo-Christian God.

The rest of your post was also grounded on the supreme assumption that the Bible actually is without error, that Jesus actually was the son of God, etc.
I am not sure I think the bible is without error, I think the NWT is evidence that there can be errors in translations.

It goes far, far beyond just some translation errors. There are outright myths in the Bible. Bible scholars for the past three-hundred years have found these more and more. (Actually, even Maimonedes many centuries ago saw the difficulties in attributing the Pentateuch to a single author, namely Moses). I reccommend the following books which helped me see things in a new light:

"Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism" by John Shelby Spong

"The Origin of Satan" by Elaine Pagels

"Honest To God" by John A.T. Robinson

"Steve Allen on The Bible, Religion and Morality" by Steve Allen

"The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman

"The View From Nebo -- How Archaeology is Rewriting the Bible and Reshaping the Middle East" by Amy Dockser Marcus

I cannot see how anyone with any sense of intellectual (and moral!) honesty could still believe in a literal Bible or the God of Christianity as portrayed by conservative Evangelicals.

Really -- my God, man! -- there is so much you are missing.
I am not sure what you mean by that. If you mean I am missing information, you are right. There are millions of books on every subject. There are at least thousands of books, both pro and anti Christian. I will never read them all in my lifetime, I will always be missing something.

See above titles.

If you mean I am missing something in life, then you are wrong. I think there is no better life possible than Christian life, I mean the Christian life as outlined in the bible, not in some churches.
Christian life has made me a better person. Certainly a better person than I was as a Jehovah's Witness.
I know it is an old question, but I think it is a valid one; would you rather live in a world of true bible Christians or in a world of non-Christians?

Actually, if I had to choose a global religion for all mankind I would choose Buddhism. A world of atheist/agnostic secular humanists would be a far better world than one of fundy Christians.

It is not possible to give a good analogy for this work of God, but I will use a very poor one, just to illustrate. Suppose you were a judge and your child came before you charged with murder. You love your child with all your heart and cannot stand the thought of sending your child to be executed for the crime, so, you yourself, pay the penalty so your child can live, especially if your child is genuinely sorry for the crime and promises to spend the rest of his/her life living properly.

I think your analogy is fine. It is the doctrine itself which is poor. Think about it -- who is the one who accuses the child of murder and will punish him/her for it? The parent. You say the parent doesn't want the child to die -- wouldn't the simplest solution be to not judge/condemn in the first place? What parent -- even a bad one -- would put their child through this.

The Ransom arrangement is also a very sordid "solution" since it only benefits the minority of people who put faith in Jesus (whatever that means). It is NOT a "free gift" as is so commonly said. Really, the entire thing is so utterly preposterous that any critical thinking on the matter will obliterate this notion. Think about it. Ask questions. What would YOU do if you were God.

I know that is a poor example but I think you get my point, what parent would not give their life to save the life of their child?

Again, what parent would kill their child -- for anything?

I don't expect to change you, KGB, Yerusalyim or any of the other Christians on this forum. Change will only come to those who are courageous to challenge their beliefs and look objectively at all sides of the issue. Perhaps there are those who are just not ready to do this, just as there are JWs who are not ready to examine their religion. All the same, I think this thread will produce some benefit.

Bradley

151

Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

by logansrun in

i'm going to be a man of few words here.

christianity, in it's truest, fundamentalist form, promotes an unhealthy and non-productive victim mentality.

the christian feels helpless on his own -- condemned by sin and absolutely unworthy.

logansrun

Borgfree,

I do not fell like I am a victim of two people who lived 6000 years ago, I think I am under a sentence of death because of those two people, but do not think of it as being a victim.

Wow. How is one not to feel like a victim because of a sentence of death? Read this statement ten times and see just how silly it it.

The rest of your post was also grounded on the supreme assumption that the Bible actually is without error, that Jesus actually was the son of God, etc. Sorry -- no Bible scholar worth his salt would agree with this. Unfortunately, not all of humanity learned from the great works of the Enlightenment. I think you have compeletely approached this issue from one side and one side only -- that of conservative Christianity. Really -- my God, man! -- there is so much you are missing.

The "Ransom Sacrifice" is one of the most perverse, incoherant and twisted religious ideas humankind has ever thought of. I don't have the time to get into that now, though. It will have to wait. Oh, hell...I'll just say this: God supposedly sends his son to die as a blood offering to himself. HIMSELF!! The blood wasn't paid to Satan (which would have remotely made more sense) but was paid to the person who provided the money, so to speak! Oh, and what a sacrifice -- according to Christians God and Jesus both knew for a fact that JC would be ressurrected -- not much of a sacrifice if you ask me. The whole thing is so convoluted I've got to believe the councils that cannonized the Bible in the 4'th century must have been giggling.

Yerusalyim,

Let me get this straight, we have sin in our nature, right? Okay -- so where is it? The human genome is the blueprint for nearly everything about us from the color of our eyes to our sexual orientation. Have scientists ever found a gene(s) for "sin"? Nope.

You're a Catholic, right? The Pope has officially endorsed evolution, right? All evolution is based on gene fluctuation -- additions, mutations, genetic transfer, etc. So -- where is sin? Are chimpanzees 99.5% sinners since we share that amount of genetic information with them? You see, your definition of human "nature" is based on pure mysticism which has no grounding in actual fact.

To the others: thanks for the comments. I'll respond more on this thread tomorrow (if it is still alive). I'm going to bed now. Goodnight

Bradley

151

Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

by logansrun in

i'm going to be a man of few words here.

christianity, in it's truest, fundamentalist form, promotes an unhealthy and non-productive victim mentality.

the christian feels helpless on his own -- condemned by sin and absolutely unworthy.

logansrun

Tink,

Ah, you're too cute for me to argue with you.

You said,

your post simply made me think of my family. my grandmother and aunts are your run-of-the-mill christians...they have no real interest in discovering the ultimate truth of life, theyre not on a quest for knowledge. they simply believe in god and feel comforted by that belief. any time i try to challenge their beliefs with factual evidence suggesting theyre wrong, their response is that they believe what they believe regardless, and it keeps them happy. so long as theyre not foisting their beliefs onto me, which they dont, i'm fine with it and i'm happy that it works for them. to strip that belief away from them would be cruel.

I agree. I would not attempt, nor can I try, to change someones beliefs. Change must come to the willing. For those unwilling or ambivalent -- fine. They're not damned to a hapless life. My main concern is not the "run of the mill" Christians such as your family. My concern is the fundamentalist Christian -- those that I feel truly come closer to the message of the first century Christians (save the Gnostics who I admire). There are varying degrees to this mess. I'm not out to kill.

Be well,

Bradley

151

Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

by logansrun in

i'm going to be a man of few words here.

christianity, in it's truest, fundamentalist form, promotes an unhealthy and non-productive victim mentality.

the christian feels helpless on his own -- condemned by sin and absolutely unworthy.

logansrun

Oh, I can just hear Christians now saying, "But, I don't feel helpless! I pray to Jesus and he gives me the strength I need! He has helped me many times before!"

Baloney.

You are praying to a placebo. You can get by as an individual without any supernatural outside assistance. That's how good evolution has molded you. I'm not saying that God doesn't exist and that prayer isn't good at all, but realise this -- any good or empowering action you do comes from YOU. No one -- not God, not Jesus, not the Buddha -- helped you. You did it. Be thankful.

Bradley

151

Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

by logansrun in

i'm going to be a man of few words here.

christianity, in it's truest, fundamentalist form, promotes an unhealthy and non-productive victim mentality.

the christian feels helpless on his own -- condemned by sin and absolutely unworthy.

logansrun

Tinkerbell,

do you contend that christianity creates these feelings in its 'victims'?

Yes and no. Some people have an intensely helpless and pessimistic mentality and are drawn to Christianity -- JW or otherwise. Others are shaped and molded by Christianity (usually from their upbringing) and simply believe what they are told.

because i've felt all of these things for most of my life, in a way that is totally unconnected to christianity.

Everyone feels this way sometime -- even the most positive and proactive people on the planet. You seem like a positive person so I am surprised you think of yourself this way in general. All the same, I'm not saying that people should not naturally think of themselves as helpless and powerless victims. My God, it's embedded in our culture and upbringing! My point is that we can work and think through these feelings -- not give in to some fairy tale which doesn't stand a multitude of tests from a wide range of disciplines.

even if it is just a fairy tale....so what? if i'm desparate for comfort in my life and the thought that i've been saved by an act of grace or 'victimization' brings exactly that to me, what's the harm?

What do you think the harm might be? I'll let you think about that.

maybe having a security blanket isnt all that noble, but if my delusion isnt detrimental to anyone else then why bother bursting my bubble?

If someone realizes they are in a delusion can it possibly be comforting anymore? I've seen people face the facts which damn Christianty (or the JWs) and they try and twist their minds into a pretzel to hold onto it -- thus furthering their delusion and pain. Also, even if damaging or destroying the faith of some does hurt them, so be it. Better that they face reality. And, better still that they don't promote their delusion for others to be misled.

just a thought. it's not for everyone, it's not for me, but maybe it makes some people feel less alone, and they can keep it as far as i'm concerned.

I'm not saying people should not give up all their spiritual values or face a life of empty loneliness. There ARE other options out there. More to come....

Bradley

PS -- I am not dispariging some of the great thoughts Jesus and his followers taught. Nor am I saying there is no benefit in Christianity whatsoever.