Posts by StrongHaiku

51

Best Argument for Atheism - In your view.

by LAWHFol in

if crisis of conscience is one of the top watchtower doctrine killers, what is the coc of theism?.

i'd like to read a book, or other material that does the best job logically arguing for atheism.. i've not read any darwin, however it is my assumption that his focus is primarily on evolution, is this correct?

if you were to recommend one book or a few pieces of reading material, which do the best job of defending atheism, what would they be?.

StrongHaiku

Best argument for atheism?

This is a good question. I hope this can help clarify:

The reason I am an atheist is because I have not been provided good evidence of the theist's proposition that "God(s) exist". The burden of proof is on the theist. This would also be true if the person said they believed in UFOs, the Loch Ness monster, fairies, Big Foot, The Illuminati, etc. The burden is not on me to disprove their claims, but for the believer in the claims to prove their position. The proof of God's existence by most theists is typically faith, personal revelation, a holy book, or they point to the Universe and say "Oh, how complex...surely there was a creator", and so on. If this is not sufficient for you, you take the default position which is atheism. Therefore, the question could be reworded as "Best argument for theism?" and, if there isn't a good argument for theism, the default position is atheism.

Also, it is good to try not to mix evolution (and the Theory of Evolution), the Big Bang theory, abiogenesis, and other ideas into the mix. These are scientific explanations of natural phenomenon and are not positions for or against the proposition "There is a God(s)". The proposition that "there is a God(s)" needs to stand on its own merit (or lack thereof).

For example, the Big Bang theory is the current best scientific explanation of how the Universe came about from a high-density state then expanded. Lots of great experiments that go farther and father in time. We don't have all the answers yet and we may never have them. But the default position on these gaps of knowledge would be "We don't know" (and, maybe, "let's keep trying to find out") and not "Therefore...God(s)".

Hope this helps.

53

Apost8News: "Return to Jehovah" Official Literature Release Video - 2015 Convention Lowlight

by cappytan in

again, thanks to wifibandit and pixel for their work behind the scenes.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwzviu3jfko.

StrongHaiku

So, the GB sat down, looked at their numbers and complaints, and decided that this strategy (Operation: "Kill More Trees")...

1. ...would allow them to get access to cash and resources from people who have been away for a while. In other words, they may see "the sheep" that return as a desperately needed new source of revenue.

2. ...would provide a gesture to satisfy some complaints from the JWs and other organizations on the shunning policy.

Am I my being too cynical?

53

Apost8News: "Return to Jehovah" Official Literature Release Video - 2015 Convention Lowlight

by cappytan in

again, thanks to wifibandit and pixel for their work behind the scenes.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwzviu3jfko.

StrongHaiku

A little bit after 7:10 into the broadcast it begins to sound like a weird diatribe regarding the "End of the System" and a creepy attempt at humor regarding his "heavenly hope".

AM III: "We just don't know..." (He said it several times)

With all due respect, then why in the world would we listen to you or take you seriously?

53

Apost8News: "Return to Jehovah" Official Literature Release Video - 2015 Convention Lowlight

by cappytan in

again, thanks to wifibandit and pixel for their work behind the scenes.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwzviu3jfko.

StrongHaiku

JWs - how easily the talk about love, how seldom they show it in actions.

Well said, steve2... Nicely put.

On a side note, AM III looks, sounds, and acts like a cross between Dick Cheney and "The Penguin" from Batman.

Weird...

53

Apost8News: "Return to Jehovah" Official Literature Release Video - 2015 Convention Lowlight

by cappytan in

again, thanks to wifibandit and pixel for their work behind the scenes.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwzviu3jfko.

StrongHaiku

This guy's an ipecac... "Do you ever reminisce about the good times you had with Jehovah's people? An encouraging congregation meeting? Thrilling convention? A delightful experience in the ministry? Or, simply a pleasant conversation with a fellow believer?... God, that's beautiful!" Ugh! I think I threw up in my mouth with that one...

I would be happy to trade the magazine (and sentiment) for just giving me my family back. That would be swell cause then, I wouldn't have to "reminisce".

4

We were duped just like you!!

by John Aquila in

if the gb finally gets caught in their devious shenanigans dont think they dont have a plan.. they are always way ahead of the game.

all the governing body has to do to escape repercussions from an angry mob of jws, .

is play the victim card.

StrongHaiku

LOL! If only... I think they aren't through using Satan, apostates, and the world as their whipping posts. But, it's fun to think they could always add the Bible in the mix. I don't put anything past them. And, I think they could actually get away with it...

Considering the large number of effective psychological defense mechanisms they have in place, even with such a concession, I believe many would still stay in. They would simply do a bit of eisegesis legerdemain and craft it as "We serve Jehovah, not a book..." or some other nonsense, supported by a string of scriptures. Perhaps they could even come up with new revelations, as the Mormons did. And, we all know that allegiance to the Organization has become paramount to everything else. The GB are masters at turning lemons into lemonade.

Personally, I think most JWs, like the rest of my family, are going to ride that bus right down the precipice. I truly believe that the GB could have a press conference tomorrow boldly announcing that "It was all a sham. We were making things up. Ha, ha, ha...thanks for the money...SUCKERS!, Hail Satan!", moon the audience, give the audience the finger, and walk out and you would STILL have JWs looking to find a way to stay on that bus.

I hope, at the very least, that their numbers will continue to stagnate, they become more irrelevant and marginalized, and maybe (in the undetermined future) go out with a whimper, not a bang. Which is a small comfort for people like us who have family in. But, it's good to dream.

18

Undue influence - other areas in life

by DavidG in

jw
friends

after gradually waking up to ttatt im finding myself with this question:.

since it is so easy to be indoctrinated with jw beliefs, are there other areas in my life where i'm also under influance of other false beliefs?

from the culture i've grown up with, school etc?.

StrongHaiku

DavidG, it is my pleasure.

I think over time you will find yourself re-evaluating ALL sorts of beliefs you took for granted. We often encourage others to re-examine their understanding of science, history, critical thinking, etc. when they leave (or are leaving) the Organization. But we often don't talk about some of the other areas where the Organization has indoctrinated us with incorrect information and logic.

When I left, I had to re-examined my perceptions and beliefs about people/society and found that the Organization is replete with implicit (and explicit) racist, sexist (at times misogynistic), and homophobic undertones, to name a few. You will probably want to re-examine your beliefs and sensibilities about those (and many other) issues using resources and perspectives outside of the Organization.

This is not likely to happen overnight and it will be a lifelong process. It takes a lot of work and you may, at times, feel shame/guilt about how you were taught to view a particular group or gender. But, it is important to work on it. You want to become a person that can fit into modern society and, the ideas the Organization filled our head with are Bronze Age (at best).

69

Breaking News: Anthony Morris III comments on Ireland legalization of gay marriage.

by cappytan in

jw
friends

#notsatire.

thanks to wifibandit and pixel for collaborating on this.

more to come.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxce4duetw8.

StrongHaiku

Wow. Gotta give AM III extra points for being able to include racist and sexist undertones with his homophobic statement. That's pretty impressive. Bravo!

18

Undue influence - other areas in life

by DavidG in

jw
friends

after gradually waking up to ttatt im finding myself with this question:.

since it is so easy to be indoctrinated with jw beliefs, are there other areas in my life where i'm also under influance of other false beliefs?

from the culture i've grown up with, school etc?.

StrongHaiku

Those questions you posed are the same I posed myself when I left many years ago. When I left, I asked myself "Since I believed so strongly that these teachings were true, and now I find they are not, what else am I wrong about?" The answer to that proved to be that I was wrong about MANY things. And, I am still finding things I was wrong about. But I now have better tools/skills and more freedom to learn more, think for myself, and correct ideas and beliefs. And, maybe the one "good" thing about having had the JW experience is that you will, hopefully, be more critical and skeptical in the future.

When you leave the Organization, you will probably realize two key things:

1. That many of the things they taught you were not correct and...

2. That we (JWs) were not given good tools/skills to think about how to determine what is correct - i.e. critical thinking, logic, and evidence. What we got from the Organization is "faith" couched in an air of pseudo-intellectualism. The version of "critical thinking, logic, and evidence" the Organization claims to use (and we were taught) is nothing of the sort.

I think many JWs leave understanding item 1, but many do not fully appreciate how badly they are lacking in item 2. You will need to continue to equip yourself with facts, but more importantly, you will need to equip yourself with the thinking tools/skills to understand how to evaluate facts.

Enjoy your voyage of discovery. Keep feeding your brain.

On a side note, there is a really good/fun book called "Being Wrong" by Kathryn Schulz which has an engaging explanation on how our minds perceive being right and wrong. She has a TED talk you might find interesting - http://www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_schulz_on_being_wrong?language=en

19

So I overheard a discussion that my son and wife were having about creation yesterday

by My Name is of No Consequence in

so i am getting ready for bed yesterday night and i overhear my teenage son and wife talking about how the evidence of creation far outweighs the evidence of evolution.

i heard my son say that evolution has so many holes and how could something happen from nothing.

i wanted to open the door and ask them both how the creator happened from nothing just to see what they would say..

StrongHaiku

I don't think you will need luck because you are doing the most important thing - i.e. asking questions. That's always a good place to start. I was a JW and I believed that God created everything, evolution was incorrect, all science is suspect, bad things happen because Satan and sin, etc. When you are inside, all outside information is made suspect and unreliable. It wasn't until many decades later of studying topics and sources outside the WTBTS material that you start to realize that (a) the Society often presents their arguments incorrectly/deceptively then (b) proceeds to answer their own carefully crafted questions to make it fit the answer.

For example, the Society constantly proposes that "if evolution is not true, that proves...God." and will also throw in the Big Bang Theory into the mix at times. This is a logical fallacy and it confuses the topics. For one, evolution (change over time), is a fact. We then have The Theory of Evolution as the current and best scientific explanation of the evidence (e.g. fossils, genetics). The Theory of Evolution does not attempt to explain how life originated. That area of study is abiogenesis. Abiogenesis deals with if/how non-organic material could organize (over time and processes) into to complex organic life. Lots of great experiments in that area show promise. Lastly, we have the Big Bang Theory which is the current and best scientific explanation to how the universe began from a high-density state then expanded. Lots and lots of progress being made to get closer and closer to the first instant of the universe.

The reason for pointing this out is that the WTBTS confuses these (and other) topics to make arguments that fit a solution they want to fit - i.e. God did it. They make a further mistake to imply that disproving any/all of the previous (and other) scientific theories means - "God did it". This is not correct as the premise that "God did it" would require its own body of evidence irrespective of the validity of a particular scientific theory.

One thing I would recommend is do some research on some of the above topics - i.e. The Theory of Evolution, abiogenesis, and The Big Bang Theory using sources outside the WTBTS. Here is a good article on evolution you might enjoy - http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/15-answers-to-creationist/. There is a wealth of information out there that do not include God into the equation so you can learn the topic objectively. And, perhaps, you can invite your son on a learning adventure when you feel ready. Maybe you could couch it as "learning to counter the arguments we get at the door". And, "encouraging him to do his own research", as you stated, is an excellent idea.

As for "why is the world the way it is?", that is an important question. However, as an exercise, you might want to simplify the question by removing a supernatural/force to the equation to start and only add it in when it is necessary. Once you do that a lot of things begin to make sense. And, you may find over time that you don't need to add the supernatural into the equation.

For what is worth, "Good Luck".