Posts by adamah

95

I think my faith might be returning. Feeling very confused.

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

i've been out the organisation for around 8 years.

when i first left, im positive that i suffered from some sort of post traumatic stress.

i was very angry at myself for accepting the really bad parts of the religion that i strongly disagreed with.

adamah

Adam said to Kate: So bring it on, and lay the evidence on me

Violia said- No one has to, Adam. Maybe take a dump in an atheist thread- and I say this with as much agape I can muster.

Violia, Kate has repeatedly made some silly claim about o-chem proving God's existence, and I asked her to back up the claim and explain it (since someone else who doesn't know what she's talking about likely is going to simply repeat it, based on her claim of possessing some expertise in the subject area).

Violia, do you understand the concept of 'burden of proof', and who bears it when making an assertion?

Or let me guess: you probably just want to believe what you WANT to believe, and no one else can tell you otherwise; you don't want to bother with learning all that nonsense like commonly-accepted conventions of the rules of proof, examining evidence, etc?

Heck, weren't you just rejoicing above about how you claim to possess critical-thinking skills, since you're now an ex-JW?

Viola said- you are high jacking this thread.

The topic is called "I think my faith is returning", and the OP posted today how she's losing her faith again.

Granted, you may not LIKE what I'm saying, but that's another matter entirely from claiming I'm going OT (hijacking), since it's uncomfortably ON-TOPIC of the lack of evidence to justify one's beliefs, which is EXACTLY WHEN faith is required.

Viola said- Perhaps take that last post and start another thread explaining why all believers are ignorant and decisional.

Don't put words in my mouth, please: I never said that believers ARE ignorant, so you're simply creating a volatile (straw-man) claim as if it's some sort of a defense.

I've always said believers feel the need to defend faith based primarily on emotional reasons, not rational ones, since those who are more intelligent show a much greater capability for creating tons of post-hoc rationalizations, inventing all kinds of excuses for WHY their beliefs are not irrational (which is not a synonym for ignorant, BTW, if you even care about such important semantic differences).

The only time intelligence comes into play is when someone possibly allow their emotional blinders to remain on, lead to a willful ignorance and conscious denial of the facts.

Adam

95

I think my faith might be returning. Feeling very confused.

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

i've been out the organisation for around 8 years.

when i first left, im positive that i suffered from some sort of post traumatic stress.

i was very angry at myself for accepting the really bad parts of the religion that i strongly disagreed with.

adamah

Lisa Rose said-

You do not believe in Jesus or God, so what difference does it make to you how others interpret the scriptures or what they believe God wants? It's hilarious you think your understanding of scripture is the only correct one, or even that by claiming to be Christian they need to closely adhere to the bible. I don't think you get a vote on that one.

Hate to break the news to you, but many of the widely-respected Bible scholars and theologians within academic circles are atheists, and have the academic and intellectual integrity to speak out on "The Truth About The Bible" (TTATB). Many other scholars remain mute on their personal beliefs (or claim to be deists), but manage to avoid allowing their personal beliefs in Gods to color their professional interpretations when considering the original cultural context and academic issues at plays.

We're LONG past the era of William Albright school of thinking in the 1940's, with Bible-believing archaeologists who were said to "have one hand on the shovel, and the other on the Bible" as they sought out archaeological evidence that would prove the Bible and God. Instead, their plans back-fired, as the uncovered archaeological evidence disproves the historicity of most of what is found in the Bible such that anyone who believes today that eg the exodus is a historical event is automatically dismissed as a crank who's denying the overwhelming evidence and consensus opinion.

Are you familar with the many names in the field of Bible scholarship and/or archaeology? If not, you need to read some Bill Devers, Israel Finkelstein, Bart Ehrman, Francesca Stavrakopoulou, and others, since the evidence points to the Bible (Old Testament and New), being the work of clever uninspired men, where the reality of the Bible is far more fascinating than the stories contained inside.

Google "atheist Bible scholars" (or archaeologists) sometime, and you'll stuff like this:

http://atheist-seeker.blogspot.com/2005/07/secret-of-bible-scholars_07.html

The Secret of the Bible Scholars

The Bible scholars have a secret. A secret that they cannot afford to reveal.

What many "scholars" are telling the public is not exactly what they believe. They know that the "Jesus", as we know and understand him today, was nothing special but rather, a mere product of the Greco-Roman culture - a hellenization. They also know that the core doctrines and theology of the Christian religion was simply a fusion of hellenistic ideas and ancient mediterrenean culture, was a product of its time, and was no different from other competing religions of that time. These "scholars" also know that modern-day Christians are following a set of books believed to be the "Word of God" where 80% of which we have no idea who wrote. They know for a fact that Moses has nothing to do with the Pentateuch. It is also known to these "scholars" that none of the Gospels were written by the apostles nor by an eyewitness of the account written on them. And yet we have been fed up with the "fact" that the authors of the Bible had been ascertained. These are just few of what they truly know.

This secret must not come out. And you will understand why. A former Christian theologian turned Deist in the Raving Atheist Forum has this to say:

"VERY few, if any, of these scholars would or could admit error. It would simply destroy them, their careers and possibly their families.

Mike, when I was an intern youth minister, our head minister confessed to me this: "Jon, if I taught what I really know to be the truth, they'd fire me, and I have a family to support." No kidding. Now, Johnny was NOT an unethical man...merely one who skirted the critical issues in favor of sending his kids to college. This is not cynicism, this is reality. Even the unmarried students have built their 'very existence' off of the truths of the Bible. Think about how difficult it would be to sign that all away...to ADMIT you were wrong for 10, 20, 50 years.

I submit that very few men or women could do this, and THAT prevents the most brilliant of the lot from seeing what's right in front of them. I was able to do it, but even for a rouge, it was incredibly difficult. Just think about it."

Just look at what happen to former New Testament Bible scholar professor Gerd Lüdemann after publicly declaring his unbelief. He remarked, "People know Christianity is not true, but they won’t address it publicly". Even after attempts for appeal to reconsider, he was expelled from the theological faculty of Gottingen University. Aside from being a noted author in Europe, he used to teach the New Testament in a school in Germany that trains ministers. 1

There are others who bravely revealed this "secret". Some, after publicly declaring their unbelief, decided to walk away from Christianity (Bible Scholars Robert M. Price and G.A Wells first comes to mind). Others remained but with a more liberal outlook on Christianity (Bishop John Shelby Spong, Burton Mack, Raymond Brown etc.). Others are still in the closet but, nonetheless, are brave enough to acknowledge the fact that Christianity is a lie. Personally, I cannot blame them for remaining in the shadows. Is truth always more important than happiness?

Although there are other people who already came out, it is unfortunate that their information is not widely accessible to the public knowledge. Aside from the fact that this "liberal" scholarship is covered and buried deep within the sands of dishonest Christian scholarship, it is a sad fact that the complex nature of modern biblical scholarship does not penetrate popular culture. It takes much effort to understand even just the basic discipline of archeology, historical criticism, and modern biblical scholarship. Not really something an average person would care give attention to study and understand. "He has better things to do than waste his time."

As the POCM website says, "Are there real scholars who see Pagan syncretism in Christianity? Yes there are. But you don't hear about their studies in day to day popular culture. NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN doesn't care."

Add Fox News to the list, since they have Megan Fox saying nonsense on air, most recently saying that everyone knows that both Santa Claus and Jesus are WHITE (and apparently a teacher parroted the claim to a black student the next day, and was placed on paid leave):

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/12/17/teacher-who-said-santa-is-white-placed-on-paid-leave/

95

I think my faith might be returning. Feeling very confused.

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

i've been out the organisation for around 8 years.

when i first left, im positive that i suffered from some sort of post traumatic stress.

i was very angry at myself for accepting the really bad parts of the religion that i strongly disagreed with.

adamah

BOTR said- Spirituality is a very personal matter.

Yes, it is "personal". Now, why do you feel you have the right to publicly share your faith and not expect your beliefs to be challenged, as if you're immune from needing to explain the basis for your faith when you share it in public to others?

You know the answer: you cannot defend it. It's completely irrational, and you'd only be attempting to defend a loser of a case if you tried.

BOTR said- No one should have to justify their journey to anyone else.

No one should have to share their faith in public, either, but wait: that's not actually true, is it? Isn't explaining one's faith to others a MANDATE for Xians? "Go therefore and make disciplines", etc? "Let your light shine"? "Faith without works is dead"?

BOTR said- The day we do so is the day we become active Witnessses again.

See, you and the others here publicly "professing your faith in Jesus" haven't left the ugly JW proselytizing habit behind: you've only somewhat changed the lyrics, but the song remains the same.

Hence you join the ranks of other Xian warriors, some of whom you have no problem challenging in public (TEC, even AGuest). Is that why TECs preaching seems to bother you so much, gets under your skin? Too close for comfort?

BOTR said- You are very rude to me. I will not tolerate it.....Your rants detract from your championship of atheism and whatever else.

Relax, BOTR: I'm as calm as anything here, but you're seemingly blowing the gasket here, calling me "rude".

As a Xian, aren't you and the rest of believers supposed to be demonstrating "the fruitages of the spirit" (love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control)? How does aggressively telling me off and declaring me "rude" demonstrate YOUR commitment to Galatians 5:22?

What happened to "turn the other cheek"?

In fact, TEC (as illogical as she may be at times), deserves credit for at least "walking the walk" so as not to be a hypocritical Xian; in fact, you and others who claim to be Xians could learn something on that topic from TEC.

Some people feel they have the right to be as contradictory as they want to be AND demand they be respected for it or else they throw a hissy fit, as if they have some God-given right to publicly spew their goofy ideas, but expect everyone else to take it easy on them as if they know their ideas don't withstand the slightest bit of challenge, fading when challenged slightly as if their beliefs are some hot-house flower left outside overnight.

If you and any others cannot contain your overwhelming urges to share your faith publicly with others, then don't be surprised when someone points out your loose grasp of reality and reckless disregard for the TRUTH; my "rants" (as you call them) are incredibly more researched than your barely-coherent stream-of-consciousness postings filled with self-doubts, eg:

BOTR said- Do I stand up to my family whom I love and respect and cave in to win approval from some anonymous poster on the Internet? It is not logical.

No, it's not. Were you trying to make a point?

Not that it matters, but you'd expect someone trained as a lawyer would have more respect for evidence, but I know that lawyers don't always value evidence (esp if it's inculpatory evidence that only incriminates their client AND themselves!), which is why lawyers rely on the power of emotional persuasion when presenting cases to a jury, just like preachers do, exc.

Kate said- I have many times you are just behaving incredulously, you don't want to understand about organic chemistry. That's okay but is proves you are wrong about the probability God does not exist, it's more proabable he Created the universe.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to 'connect the dots' between o-chem and proof of God (since I have taken o-chem, but then I was somewhat at a disadvantage, eg since I didn't want to see God's fingerprints in statistical distribution of enantiomers. I also went on to take upper-division biochem courses which I'm guessing you likely never took, since you were a general chemistry major, and not a biology major. You DID earn an undergrad degree in chem, right)?

So bring it on, and lay the evidence on me, Kate (but perhaps you should start a new thread).

Adam

95

I think my faith might be returning. Feeling very confused.

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

i've been out the organisation for around 8 years.

when i first left, im positive that i suffered from some sort of post traumatic stress.

i was very angry at myself for accepting the really bad parts of the religion that i strongly disagreed with.

adamah

jgnat said-

Wasn't it John on the island of Patmos that came out with that spewing lukewarm water?

Yeah, the authorship of the book of Revelation is in question, but regardless, the passage commences at Revelation 3:14 and supposedly was a message from Jesus in heaven to the Laodicean congregation.

Revelation 3:

14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation. 15 “ ‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

Per Jesus, you gotta be all-in or all-out: he detests wishy-washy fence-sitters.

95

I think my faith might be returning. Feeling very confused.

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

i've been out the organisation for around 8 years.

when i first left, im positive that i suffered from some sort of post traumatic stress.

i was very angry at myself for accepting the really bad parts of the religion that i strongly disagreed with.

adamah

BOTR said- It seems that so many of us feel that only our belief or lack of belief is the correct path for other people. We can customize our belief for ourselves. There is no right or wrong.

I always get a kick out of when Xians argue for moral relativism, as if they lost the plot and think Jesus and God are OK with that all-accepting attitude of "hey, do whatever floats your boat, and it's A-OK with us!" I mean, didn't Jesus warn about those who twist his policies to fit their will, and those of "luke-warm" faith?

BOTR said- Spirituality is a very personal matter. No one should have to justify their journey to anyone else. The day we do so is the day we become active Witnessses again. Personal psychology, aesthetics, and culture are only some of the factors in making a choice.

How about the biggie, AKA reality? Where does the reality of God's existence fit into your teleological (ends-justifed) decision on whether to belief in God or not? I mean, shouldn't that be the MOST-important factor here, as well?

95

I think my faith might be returning. Feeling very confused.

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

i've been out the organisation for around 8 years.

when i first left, im positive that i suffered from some sort of post traumatic stress.

i was very angry at myself for accepting the really bad parts of the religion that i strongly disagreed with.

adamah

We all left jws and now have gained critical thinking skills but you now declare that only you have the real truth . - violia

Cofty said- Many people seem to abandon critical thinking once they leave the cult.

Heck, I'd say it's even worse than that, since just because someone gets kicked out of the JWs doesn't mean they're handed critical thinking skills as a "parting gift" on the way out the door! If anyone was a JW (and born-in's deserve some slack here, since they didn't have a choice in the matter), they're starting from a deficit, and simply exiting the religion doesn't mean they're somehow now ahead of the game, since they have to make up for lost time just to break even.

Instead, people need to put in some thought and effort to develop critical thinking, or they often simply find another delusional faith-based belief system to fill the vacuum in their heads in order to satisfy their unmet emotional needs.

78

I think Im an Atheist :(? :)?

by chrisuk in

jw
friends

ive been pondering my beliefs for a while now and ive come across things that i just cant accept.

i was recently walking with a christian who stated that the universe couldnt just come from nothing.

he said that the universe was so complex that it needed a designer, he also said something which ive heard before.

adamah

Seraphim said- I think you misunderstand my point adamah. You’re suggesting by the sound of it that mathematics, simple or complex was invented rather than discovered. I don’t share that view for a variety of reasons. One cannot prove scientifically why the universe has order as opposed to complete randomness.

It should be self-evident as to WHY men would need to develop a system of counting "things" (which lead to the concept of arithmetic): it was required to develop a system of commerce and trade.

As far as the chaos vs order, you're confused: there's far-many-more examples of DISORDER (chaos) found in the Universe than order, such that chaos predominates and rules throughout the Universe. The whole argument of "the perfectly-ordered state of the Universe proves the existence of a creator" is absurd for anyone who, eg understands the rudiments of, and need for, chaos theory. It's a claim coming from personal ignorance, refusing to see the evidence whish IS known.

Even Albert Einstein (who objected to the role of uncertainty into the field of physics, as introduced by the work of Heisenburg and Bohr), eventually admitted this:

“As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.”

Einstein objected to the concept of black holes (even though his work led to their discovery), but eventually they were confirmed to exist. Einstein was wrong, since in the end the Universe doesn't care one whit about what Einstein thinks about how it should exist: it just exists as it does. In fact, Einstein was not a dogmatist, and he'd likely be tickled pink for his hypothesis to be proven wrong, since scientists often ARE wrong, and science moves forward by hypotheses being falsified, not by being "proven".

Seraphim said- You have faith that science can in time find the answer to why there is order. I say that is faith and your welcome to it I might add. So am I though and I would point out that there are two type of the God of the gap arguments. One science and mathematics can answer and the other they cannot by dint of the nature of science and mathematics.

Project your own discomfort with the unknown onto others much? It's what you're doing right now.

Please don't play the 'your faith in science is equivalent to my faith in woo" card: it's a false equivalency. In fact, I'm willing to restrict use of the word "faith" to the religious connotation, and use ANOTHER word (like 'conviction') for trust that is based on tangible past results.

I'm also perfectly content with saying, "we just don't know all answers right now", as long as it's tied to searching to find answers and not resting on laurels. You want to fill the void with faith in God.

I look back at those who lived 100 years ago, and what if THEY said, "Wrap it up, fellas, as there's no more left to learn, so let's put away the test tubes now"? Scientific inquiry should be like rust, in that it never sleeps, NOR should it be allowed to go into hibernation (as many religious fundamentalists would have us re-enter the dark ages).

Adam

57

oh dear I think I messed up and pushed too hard

by Frazzled UBM in

reading all the posts on the wt study on higher education and careers really fired me up yesterday.

i have 2 undergraduate and 2 postgraduate degerees and a career as a result which allows me to provide well for my jw wife and son.

i was already unhappy because after 5 or 6 weeks of not going and appearing to be making progress she went back on sunday for the second sunday in a row and as usual was away all day.

adamah

UBM said- Nice comment. Talk about racial stereo-typing.

Puleeze, Frazzled, I was in the US military in the 1970's (stationed in Guam), and saw the story play out repeatedly from those stationed in the region (across the pond from the P.I., where the military had a large presence at Clark AB). My dorm room-mate in the military was a Filipino who worked in Ferdinand Marcos' palace in Manila in the 70's, and he joined the U.S. military as his way out of the poverty of the P.I. The stereotype is not without basis, and stories of it are legendary in the military, but sometimes even hit the mainstream news, eg:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/27/philippines-mail-order-bride-gang_n_3509491.html

So when someone in the UK reports being married to a filipina, the first question in my mind is how they came into contact (just like the Russian bride on the arm of some guy in the US). The prior poster from the UK mentioned a Cypriot connection, since there's a large population of Filipinos living there:

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/global-filipino/04/25/13/filipina-domestic-workers-fear-future-amid-cyprus-slump

And note that's why I ASKED about how you met; you accuse me of making a comment as if I assumed what I didn't. You and Kate jump to conclusions much?

BTW, my friend has done extremely well for himself after becoming a U.S. citizen, since he always was driven to succeed and was a hard worker; he started buying real estate in the 1980's by scrimping and saving his money, flipping houses. He's retired now, a very-wealthy person.

81

Do you frown upon tattoos?

by confusedandalone in

i am very interested in hearing from people who really think that people with tattoos are somehow weird or cagey individuals.

i would just like to get your outlook on this matter.

today i was in a grocery store and i sawe this guy with his two kids and his wife shopping.

adamah

Are you guys also seeing more and more of these "In Living Memory Of" rear window decals, or is it only a Southern California thing? When did this one start?

Seems kinda morbid to me, but since so many people really seem to have their identity so strongly tied to their cars, it kinda makes sense to have a mobile memorial, like getting a tattoo for one's car (and it's like visiting Forest Lawn Cemetary every day, without having to actually get off the freeway).

Adam

57

oh dear I think I messed up and pushed too hard

by Frazzled UBM in

reading all the posts on the wt study on higher education and careers really fired me up yesterday.

i have 2 undergraduate and 2 postgraduate degerees and a career as a result which allows me to provide well for my jw wife and son.

i was already unhappy because after 5 or 6 weeks of not going and appearing to be making progress she went back on sunday for the second sunday in a row and as usual was away all day.

adamah

Frazzled UBM said-

I think the thing about taking my son back to the Philipines was an empty threat and I quickly put the passports in safe keeping (but did not move the money out of the joint account she has acces to - even though I was tempted to do so).

She's a Filapina? None of my business, of course, but this wasn't a relationship/marriage arranged over the internet by any chance, was it? It was a cliche for military members in the 1970's to get orders to the P.I. (Philipine Islands), and get a "house-girl" (someone to clean the house as a live-in, who's services could be bought for some incredibly low amount). The girls often married the G.I.'s and thus bought a winning lottery ticket to gain entry to the big BX/PX in America as the wife of a American G.I., marrying him NOT out of love, but to get access to the States and his money (they were viewed as MILLIONAIRES, compared to the typical citizen there). The typical story is they would try to get their families in the PI in the States, serving as their sponsors. Rarely was the marriage admitted to be what it often was.

There's a member on JWN who never was a JW (an ex-cop, IIRC; I can't recall his user name, though) who learned the hard way that getting involved with someone raised in a third-world country over the internet is fraught with peril, after she had an affair and divorced him; the differential in power and control is simply too great for many couples to overcome, where some males think they're buying a wife/concubine.

BTW, that whole bit about putting their passports "for safekeeping" suggests a willingness to control her that makes JW control measures seem tame in comparison? Did I read that correctly?

Adam