Posts by hornetsnest

19

Fascinating development in sex-abuse cases!

by hornetsnest in

i dont get on here very often, but when i saw this i figured that you would like to know about it.

it seems that the catholic church here in oregon (u. s.

) is doing everything possible to shield its assets from the sex-abuse liability they have incurred.

hornetsnest

Try this: http://www.registerguard.com/news/Wire/N0031OR--ArchdioceseBankru.html

19

Fascinating development in sex-abuse cases!

by hornetsnest in

i dont get on here very often, but when i saw this i figured that you would like to know about it.

it seems that the catholic church here in oregon (u. s.

) is doing everything possible to shield its assets from the sex-abuse liability they have incurred.

Hi, all.

I don’t get on here very often, but when I saw this I figured that you would like to know about it. It seems that the Catholic Church here in Oregon (U. S. A.) is doing everything possible to shield its assets from the sex-abuse liability they have incurred. Their current action will almost certainly have large ramifications in the similar lawsuits that are filed against the Witnesses. In that light, check this out Eugene Register Guard – Saturday, (Front page) By Julia Silverman of The Associated Press ---- “ --- Around the middle of next month, thousands of households will get a letter informing them that, as parishioners of the 124 Catholic churches in , they are officially part of the class of defendants in the Portland Archdiocese’s bankruptcy case. “U. S. Bankruptcy Judge Perris formally certified the class on Friday. “The action is nearly unprecedented: Commonly, it is the plaintiffs, not the defendants, who organize as a class in civil cases.

“But in this case, parishioners will argue that it is they --- not the archdiocese --- who own the parishes’ $600 million in assets and property. “If they lose the argument, then that money will be considered fair game for the 235 men and women who have sued the church, alleging that they suffered sexual abuse at the hands of priests.” Now consider these points: Picture every Witness family in the country receiving a letter like this one. Can you think of any better publicity? It will be directed directly to the very ones that the Society wants to keep in the dark, and will make it impossible to carry on the deception. Talk about shouting secrets from the housetops! It makes Dateline look like a piker, because this threatens their pocketbooks.
I look for chaos in the ranks.

The WTBTS has made it quite an issue that they, the Society, own the Kingdom Hall’s, etc. It will be fascinating to see what policy they pursue now. I’ll see if I can find a link. LoneWolf

10

Baptismal vows.

by hornetsnest in

i don't post here very often, as there has been no time.

however, i do drop in occasionally to see what is going on.. .

another of the posters and i have frequent correspondance and this subject came up.

hornetsnest

Hi, Little Toe and Balsam ---

My apologies to you both. For some reason I was having considerable trouble posting the entire thing. It's up now, so perhaps a review would answer any questions you may have.

As to where I'm coming from, it's a specific: i. e.: What business does anyone have in inserting themselves into a dedication of a human to his creator as a third party in any capacity? Notice my comment about John the Baptist towards the end there.

Also, Little Toe, the vows that I took predate the ones you mention considerably. It would be interesting to know the exact wording and find out how accurate that 50 year-old memory is. (Grin)

Balsam --- I've been DF'ed for more than 15 years. Actually, I've lost count. If there is a point here, it is that I feel that faith should not be based on the words of any organization. Some individuals are faithful, and many if not most aren't, particularly when they get in positions of responsibility and their egos kick in. Faith should be based on logic and reason, not somebody's say-so. In addition, each individual has the God-given responsibility to weigh the value of any and all information submitted regardless of it's source, and accept or reject it accordingly. As to loyalty, that should be in direct proportion to the loyalty that the "authorities" themselves show towards their own creator.

10

Baptismal vows.

by hornetsnest in

i don't post here very often, as there has been no time.

however, i do drop in occasionally to see what is going on.. .

another of the posters and i have frequent correspondance and this subject came up.

hornetsnest

What on earth!!! Is there a new limit as to the number of words that can be posted?

You already know who I am and where I am, however, in case you've lost it, here it is again:

Tom Howell

(Now it won't let me post my own address!) Let's see if I can pull an end run:

My rural route box is 36929

My route is Row River Road

Cottage Grove is the postoffice I use.

Oregon is my state.

My telephone number is (541) 946-1231

Tom

"LoneWolf" (now masquerading as "hornetsnest") (Grin)

10

Baptismal vows.

by hornetsnest in

i don't post here very often, as there has been no time.

however, i do drop in occasionally to see what is going on.. .

another of the posters and i have frequent correspondance and this subject came up.

hornetsnest

???????? I don't know why, but the site is allowing me to post only one paragraph at a time. Here's the rest:

Another example would be the "oversight" work. I will serve Jehovah because I want to, not because some group of men force it on me by watching for any small mistake and forcing me to do the right thing. To have it any other way is to nullify the very purpose of Christianity in the first place.

One thing that helped tremendously in this matter was that in a way, the "stones" did "cry out" to me, so that the meetings were by no means my sole source of information about Jehovah and his ways.

This came about because I lived on the edge of a wilderness, and I was surrounded by Jehovah's creations every day. As you know, a great deal can be told about an artist by studying his art, so it was in this case. I saw an incredible beauty and intelligence in the natural world, and it didn't take any particular talent to distinguish those teachings that violated the spirit of the Creator as manifested in those creations.

I guess the upshot of all of this is that I don't think "nullification" of our vows has any bearing on anything. I made a vow to Jehovah, not men. I've done all I know how to live up to that vow and wouldn't want to "nullify" it if I could. I love that God.

These men don't have the authority to enforce that vow or even call me on it. They are, quite simply, extraneous. Their relevance is in direct proportion to their faithfulness to the spirit of the word, and that has been non-existant for decades now.

(Here's an additional thought: John the Baptist was used as a tool in Jesus' baptism and dedication. If he had violated those, would he have answered to Jehovah or to John the Baptist?)

I think I'll post this on the board and see where it bounces. (Grin)

Tom

Comments, anyone?

Now as an aside to the Society's spies ---

You have a pompous ass there by the name of Ted Jaracz who has elected himself as a committee of one to cram a pile of heresy down everyone else's throats. Tell him I think he's a wimp and WAY out of his league and I want to know what he's going to do about it. Sadly, the rest of the Governing Body are apparently too old, too senile, or too cowardly to rein in this fool and his excesses.

You already know who I am and where I am, however, in case you've lost it, here it is again:

Tom Howell

10

Baptismal vows.

by hornetsnest in

i don't post here very often, as there has been no time.

however, i do drop in occasionally to see what is going on.. .

another of the posters and i have frequent correspondance and this subject came up.

hornetsnest

Hi, all,

I don't post here very often, as there has been no time. However, I do drop in occasionally to see what is going on.

Another of the posters and I have frequent correspondance and this subject came up. I know that there have been numerous threads on those vows and the various wordings the WTBTS has given them, but have never really added my "2 cents". However, his questions spurred me on and I figured that I'd post my answer here to see where it bounced. (Grin)

This is the part of his email that intrigued me:

" I mentioned e that I was of a special classification: I bailed in ?74, before the change of the Vows in ?82-?85."

Later, he expresses it this way:

" . . . that is why I cannot go back to meetings, FS, commenting etc. By doing so, I would ratify the Baptism" (new vows) "and come under Brooklyn."

He then ends it this way:

" Think about it? Comments???"

In my mind, this whole question is immaterial and is of no concern --- and a bit surprising. It has never bothered me, but perhaps I should put forth the effort to figure out why. My answer to him covers that and I thought it would be interesting to post it here for your comments too. Here it is:

Hmmmm. Dunno.

I remember back in '55 when I was baptized that they had a phrase in there that revolted me at the time and --- legitimate or not --- I made a reservation in my heart concerning that point. I felt that the phrase was illegimate from Jehovah's standpoint and had no validity nor business being in there in the first place. I just simply rejected that phrase and adopted the rest, which I felt was okay, as this vow was between Jehovah and myself and for anyone else to shoulder their way in was trespassing. I simply didn't care whether that attitude would outrage the stuffed shirts. (Not bad for a kid of 15, eh, what? LOL!!)

This was long before I started questioning the Society's teachings, so I think it's a telling point if we are to consider the question about why the GB's apostacy hasn't affected my faith. These men were merely tools that reflected what Jehovah wanted them to reflect --- poorly and sometimes --- and any time they departed from that they could be disregarded or even discarded like a used Kleenex. I understood that from the beginning and had no difficulty with it at all.

Oh, yes, that phrase: It was something to this affect: "That you dedicate yourself to the service of Jehovah God and his teachings AS PUT FORTH BY THE WATCHTOWER, BIBLE, AND TRACT SOCIETY."

When I heard that, the passage came to mind where it says of the disciples, "I tell you, If these remained silent, the stones would cry out." So, it wasn't particularly difficult to see through the Society's BS on this matter. If they didn't toe the mark, they were disposable and Jehovah would use something else. All the endless malarky about how important and holy they were simply went in one ear and out the other. That was man's ego talking, not the Holy Spirit. I welcomed such talks, as I could get some sleep then.

Even at that young age, I was jealous of the relationship I had with my creator and would vigorously guard it against human interlopers. For instance, for decades I have stated openly that Pioneering is not the sort of "privilage" that one man can bestow upon another. It is a privilage, yes, but it is also a state of mind and heart that you either have or don't have. Any elder or group of elders who would attempt to force their way into that arrangement can kiss my ass. It is between Jehovah and myself

40

They say they won't publish the Awake anymore???

by under74 in

my sister has a co-worker who's studying with jws.

he told her today that he was being told the the wt society was going to stop printing the awake this month.

and stop other publications soon.

hornetsnest

LOL, under 74!

Yes, there has been quite a battle back there. In fact it was this very thing that caused the rebellion in Bethel and the ensuing purge that hasn't quit yet. Even the brother that wrote the "Truth" book was DFed and that's why it was replaced. There have been many threads on these things over the years and many on this board that are better qualified than I to speak of it. Alan F. and Amazing are a couple of them, although there are many others who lived it first hand. I wish I had more time so as to look up some of those threads for you.

I'll bet sKally would have them at her fingertips! (Grin)

Gotta go. I didn't get any sleep last night.

Tom (LoneWolf)

18

Watchtower responsible for 18 year long IRS tax persecution

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

i thought this article was interesting.

anyone lese know of this case?.

randy.

hornetsnest

Hi, sKally!

Good to see that you're still just as sassy as ever! (Grin)

It was the lawyer Soll that I contacted. He was pretty reluctent to open up until he knew who I was, but was quite open and irate about that case when he did. I might add that Investigator called him before I did, and apparently that conversation was quite blue with profanity.

The last time I spoke to him, I mentioned the many sexual harassment lawsuits that were being filed against the WTBTS and asked if he'd be interested in getting a piece of them. His answer was an emphatic yes, as long as it was in Delaware.

That was some time back now, so I don't know what his attitude is now.

Tom (LoneWolf)

18

Watchtower responsible for 18 year long IRS tax persecution

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

i thought this article was interesting.

anyone lese know of this case?.

randy.

hornetsnest

Folks, I hate to rain on your parade here.

I too heard of this some years ago. The individuals involved live less that 200 miles from me and as I've always felt that where there's smoke, there's fire, I wanted to dig into it a bit.

I personally have contacted many of the participants there including:

The editor of the newspaper in which that article appeared. It's a right-wing newspaper, yes, and that explains the vivid style in which it is written. However, many of the facts are true and can be verified by court documents, etc. I've contacted him about 4 times, and the last time the conversation was very open and lengthy. (About one hour.)

The lawyer involved. I contacted him by both telephone and email. The case was very real, and he was livid about the uncivilized manner that he was treated by the WTBTS lawyers. He's based in Maryland. Also, it appears that Hansen still owes him $26,000.

The F.B.I. office in Medford, Oregon (the nearest office). The agent I spoke with was quite candid. Not only was there a huge and lengthy dispute, but it went into the courts. He had some very strong advice for me: "Whatever you do, DON'T get involved with either of those parties!" (The WTBTS or the Hansen's, et. al.) When I mentioned that I was raised as a JW, he just rolled his eyes and threw his hands in the air. LOL!

Both the editor and another party (a minister of one of the local churches) were parties to the law suit. As with the editor, I've spoken to the minister at length.

I have the address and telephone numbers of both Alvin Hansen and his son, and am planning on making a trip down there soon to meet and interrogate them. There is definitely some fire here, and I intend to find out how much.

I can tell you a few things: 1. The suit against the WTBTS was real, but it involved a unique strategy. 2. Hansen had recruited quite a crew to back him, including some of the more important men of the town. 3. The WTBTS managed to win the suit on appeal by demonizing Hansen as a wild-eyed radical, and Hansen played into their hands. (I reckon most of us would have been radicals too, after 18 years.) 4. Apparently they could have still won, but Hansen got cold feet there at the last, which left a bad taste in the mouths of some of his backers.

In short, folks, I'm surprised that you are so quick to discount this as a hoax. I sense that there is a real gold mine here for us, although the information is in a very raw form. It needs to be thoroughly investigated and organized, and I haven't had the time to do it --- yet.

Finally, those of you who know me know that I am extremely outspoken. I have no compunctions at all with beating the Society over the head, publically or otherwise, and have done it many times. I posted my intentions on those other threads, and shortly after that one of the Society's trouble-shooters got a message to me. That message consisted of Prov. 26:17 --- "As one grabbing hold of the ears of a dog is anyone passing by that is becoming furious at the quarrel that is not his." What was being referring to was not mentioned. However, that was the only dispute that I was involved in at the time. You can draw your own conclusions.

So again, folks, let's not be so fast to scoff at this.

Tom Howell

Alias: LoneWolf

40

They say they won't publish the Awake anymore???

by under74 in

my sister has a co-worker who's studying with jws.

he told her today that he was being told the the wt society was going to stop printing the awake this month.

and stop other publications soon.

hornetsnest

I too think it's highly unlikely, and have absolutely no information about it one way or another.

However, there is one scenario that would make it extremely interesting. As many of us are aware, there are two factions in headquarters that have been fighting one another tooth and nail. One of the heads of the more liberal faction is the editor of the Awake! magazine. Get rid of the Awake! and you would go a long ways towards neutralizing that faction, as you eliminate their "voice".

Think about it.

LoneWolf