Posts by robhic

21

Comments You Will Not Hear at the Real 2-29-04 WT Study (last wk s/b 2-22)

by blondie in

god?s way of ruling is by love.

if that would be the case, wouldn?t we really be asking ourselves the question, ?do we really want the rulership of god??

"everlasting life in a righteous new world.".

robhic

I've commented about this at another time but, as a non-JW, it literally boggles my mind to see the endless, incessant repetition of words and phrases like: "soon" "the end is near" "close at hand" "right around the corner," etc, etc. etc. ad nauseum. Just how many times can a person be told that the end is near yet the end never comes?

Didn't the story of the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" make it into JW literature and legend? Geez, it makes me want to gag seeing this endless stream of gloom and doom with no end in sight. How do they do it?!

But, like a trainwreck, I can't look away and keep assaulting my sensibilities with this BS. Am I a masochist?

Blondie, congrats and thank you for a wonderful and insightful job as usual.

Robert

25

What if satan were to change?

by robhic in

i was wondering how this part of the bible can be taken seriously.

for thousand of years, it has been written down that satan will be thrown into the abyss along with his minions.

ok, so how incredibly stupid (is there even a limit?

robhic

I recently read a "fiction" novel by the author ANNE RICE ( The Vampire Chronicles) called MEMNOC THE DEVIL. Although is was fiction; it told the story of the Devil, from his point of view.
It turned the entire Christian framework on end and made you think of the Western culture God and Creation story from a very different perspective; namely the Devils. I found it fascinating and related to your question. Read it; you will enjoy the view.

Thanks. I read a lot so this would be a good addition to my reading list. Sounds interesting, although I hate to think of reading something from the person who wrote that piffle "vampire" stuff! I'll have to get that book.

Thanks again,

Robert

21

Is it respectful to call God by name?

by woodland in

i was just wondering what your views were about calling god jehovah.

i appreciate that there is scriptures that says to call on his name, but if i were to meet the queen or president bush it would grossly disrespectful to say hi there elizabeth or how you doing george.

if this is the case with mere men and women in positions of power, is it not imaginable to address god on first name terms?

robhic

I believe I posed this same question somewhere a while back. I agree 100% with your position.

In my opinion, it is very disrespectful, not to mention presumptuous, to call a person of a higher status (or whatever) by their first name. I wouldn't call the president of a company nor my own parents by their first name. You just don't do that.

I think the dubs take some extraordinary liberties with their position on using god's name. Besides, even jesus called him "father" and that is the word/name he used to teach his followers to pray. Can't get more specific than that.

Do you think it is just one more of the many and vaious ways the WTS tries to put themselves in a "special" place and distance themselves from the rest of mainstream religions? More fuel for the "us vs. them" fire?

Robert

25

What if satan were to change?

by robhic in

i was wondering how this part of the bible can be taken seriously.

for thousand of years, it has been written down that satan will be thrown into the abyss along with his minions.

ok, so how incredibly stupid (is there even a limit?

robhic

Ozzie sez:

Robhic,
I'm afraid you're looking at things thru Dub eyes! Sure, what you state makes it sound a tad far-fetched, but then aren't you basing it upon the Dub interpretation of Revelation?
There are far different ideas on that book, do believe me, that are far more reasonable than the Dub version of events. Suppose for example, it refers allegorically to what had already taken place when Jesus triumphed over Satan and was resurrected?

Oh no! I am not nor ever was a dub! You're scaring me. The fact that you can say I am looking at this thru one's eyes concerns me. Does it mean I am spending too much time absorbing the material and thoughts from these different forums?

I didn't realize I had taken a dub position. I, actually, was going from my memory. I thought most, if not all bibles, had jesus whipping satan's ass at armageddon and tossing him and his posse into the abyss in some form or another. Is this wrong?

I was just wondering why something that has been known and recorded for thousands of years couldn't be changed by a reasonably smart demon. If lucifer knew he would be beaten and thrown into a fiery abyss seems he'd change his tactics and thro wthe whole deal into a messs of world-class proportion! I know if I had the chance, I would!

Thanks for he heads up, too, I'll try to watch myself and how I view things in the future. Wouldn't my catholic teachers be proud of me?

Thanks, Ozzie,

Robert

25

What if satan were to change?

by robhic in

i was wondering how this part of the bible can be taken seriously.

for thousand of years, it has been written down that satan will be thrown into the abyss along with his minions.

ok, so how incredibly stupid (is there even a limit?

robhic

Sword of Jah says:

But thinking about your analysis, I am reminded of Iraq's former dictator Hussein. He knew he could never win a war against the US, but why did he keep at it? Because he was stupid? Maybe, but the reality is that the guy is smart, of course using his brains for evil instead of good.

I don't disagree with this comment but I think the situations are substantially different. No one described in detail exactly how the US would capture Hussein and more-or-less beat his country into submission years and years before Saddam came to power or was even born, for that matter.

Seems to me that Satan was tipped off way in advance and his conqueror is supposedly a much more formidable opponent than the puny little US and its armies and allies. Satan's destiny has been pre-ordained since, well, since forever, according to the bible. Is satan more prideful than smart? If he is just an over-confident windbag why is he reputed to be so dangerous? Seems like a reasonably smart person could thwart him by playing to his ego. Doesn't sound so tough to me...

Robert

25

What if satan were to change?

by robhic in

i was wondering how this part of the bible can be taken seriously.

for thousand of years, it has been written down that satan will be thrown into the abyss along with his minions.

ok, so how incredibly stupid (is there even a limit?

robhic

I was wondering how this part of the bible can be taken seriously. For thousand of years, it has been written down that satan will be thrown into the abyss along with his minions. OK, so how incredibly stupid (is there even a limit?) does someone have to be to know something is going to happen to them (for 1000's of years no less...) and not change his plan?

If I knew a cop was around a corner and was going to ticket me for speeding, would I not slow down? If a burglar had taken out an ad in a newspaper saying that he was going to break into my house "soon" or "in a time very near" would I not take steps to prevent this?

It just seems silly that the battle of armageddon's outcome has been "known" (supposedly) for all this time yet nobody gives satan the credit to be smart enough to read the story! If he's that stupid, what's to be afraid of?

And what if Jesus had been freed instead of Barabbas? Besides Mel Gibson not having to make his latest movie and stir everyone up, how screwed up would the biblical world be? In my opinion, it seems that all of organized religion would never have come to be.

I'm sure some enterprising person would have eventually figured out another way to control bunches of people thru fear but that sure would have thrown a big monkey-wrench into things until this day, wouldn't it? Am I completely off-base with these musings?

I know this sounds a bit silly but it interests and amuses me.

Robert

60

Will science ever replace religion?

by onacruse in

first, there've been some really good threads here lately...i've been somewhat pre-occupied with a rather laborious personal project, so i haven't been able to engage myself in your conversations as much as i'd otherwise like; but i like to watch .

but, to the point: recently, scott atran (anthropologist, author of in gods we trust, and now working with the national center for scientific research in paris, and at the university of michigan) gave an interview in discover magazine.

the topic was "the surprises of suicide terrorism," but the concluding question (and answer) was what struck me most:.

robhic

Religions tend to self perpetuate, and in that regard they exist more or less because they've existed for a hell of a long time already. They are incredibly endurable social structures.

Interestingly, I was thinking along these lines recently.What makes a Catholic a Catholic or a Baptist a Baptist,.etc.? My guess is primarily accident of birth. You're born into a family/environment that embraces a religious group (usually) so you are raised thinking this is the one and only real religion. Some more strident than others but you've got the right one and others should get a clue. You never really question the stuff that is just spoon-fed to you. It's gotta be true because your parents (and they're right about everything when you're a kid), family and teachers (in the religious schools) tell you.

You may go to schools provided or supported by this religion, your family subscribes to the beliefs. Heck you don't really know any other way. At some point, you start to question or at least wonder about some of the bizarre teachings you've adhered to as fact and law for so long. With me raised Catholic, I could never figure out why fish isn't meat and it had to be eaten on Friday when other meat couldn't. Show me that one in the bible...

Then some of the other stuff starts looking a little suspicious. Finally, I read the bible cover to cover and what I planned to be a voyage of biblical discovery turned out making me more agnostic with atheistic leanings than anything! The bible cured me and made me a world-class skeptic.

I don't fault those who believe what they do. I just don't like when they try to force it down my throat as some absolutist doctrine. Do what floats your boat and let me float mine. Other than that, I really think enviornment you are raised in is the #1 reason for religous bias thus making it self-perpetuate from generation to generation unless or until someone starts to question it.

Robert

15

OK, here's another "Hmmmm" bible-thread

by robhic in

gen 3:22

and jehovah god said, behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever- (asv)

ok, putting aside all the trinitarian implications and the contradictory/chronological problems in genesis so as not to cloud the issue, how can this (above) be accurate?.

robhic

Gen 3:22 And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever- (ASV)

OK, putting aside all the trinitarian implications and the contradictory/chronological problems in Genesis so as not to cloud the issue, how can this (above) be accurate?

Jehovah, creator of the universe, almighty, all-powerful, all-knowing, supreme sovreign and master of all things has concentrated his abilities and power into an apple on a tree in a newly-created paradise? I mean, even faith should have its limits. And a mere human who took one bite of this fruit has now become "...as one of us..." -- an equal to God (or whomever he was speaking to)? And taking another bite from another fruit from another tree in this newly-created paradise would then give Adam and Eve eternal life?

If they were even slightly equal, why didn't they surprise Jehovah and kick his ass or use some of their newly-acquired powers (there were two of them and only one of him) to throw him out? And before all this happened, Jehovah was strolling thru the garden and Adam and Eve hid from him and he couldn't find them. How can an all-knowing being not know something? Doesn't that negate the "all-knowing" aspect? Why didn't they continue to hide until they could formulate a workable plan to get past this? They had become somewhat equal.

I am not trying to start an argument because I truly think this is a "feel-good" story written to instill a little (a lot?) fear and awe into a primitive group of nomadic herdsmen. I'd just be curious to hear from some who are much more learned in this area than I am about why anybody could read this (and other parts) using even simple logic or a critical eye and think it is a true story? I can see the ancient Hebrews buying into this bullshit but, c'mon, modern, educated, 21st Century adults? It boggles my mind...

Robert

13

Are things REALLY getting worse? JWs are so pessimistic...

by somebodylovesme in

one of the things that always puzzled me about the witnesses' doctrine was this idea that we are living in the worst time the world has ever seen - that the twentieth century has surpassed all others in death and destruction.

am i only the only crazy fool who thinks we have it pretty good?.

a hundred years ago, people died from diseases that are easily treated today.

robhic

Somebodylovesme made a comment regarding earthquakes. I'm glad you asked! I have been waiting to share this information for a while. The first part (statistics) is from the US Geological Survey and their website address is at the top.

The second part is obviously from WTS sources and it seems that the WTS is finally admitting that their stance on increased earthquake and other earth-changing activity is flawed. Enjoy. (Bold emphasis mine)

Robert

http://wwwneic.cr.usgs.gov/neis/general/handouts/increaseinearthquakes.html

Date Location Deaths

======================================

January 23, 1556 China, Shansi 830,000
August 9, 1138 Syria, Aleppo 230,000

December 22, 856+ Iran, Damghan 200,000

March 23, 893+ Iran, Ardabil 150,000

December 28, 1908 Italy, Messina 70,000 to 100,000
September, 1290 China, Chihli 100,000

November, 1667 Caucasia, Shemakha 80,000

November 18, 1727 Iran, Tabriz 77,000

November 1, 1755 Portugal, Lisbon 70,000

1268 Asia Minor, Silicia 60,000

January 11, 1693 Italy, Sicily 60,000

February 4, 1783 Italy, Calabria 50,000

====================================================

The article is from the Awake! March 22, 2002 it is entitled, "Earthquakes, Bible Prophecy, And You"

"BEFORE his death, Jesus foretold events and situations that would give evidence that this world had entered "the conclusion of the System or things." That period, he said, would be marked by such things as' pestilences, food shortages, and large-scale warfare. He also mentioned "great earthquakes"
that would occur "in one place after another." (Matthew 24:3,7; Luke 21:10, 11) Was Jesus referring to our day?
Many say no. They assert that the number of earthquakes has not substantially increased in recent decades. In fact, the U.S. National Earthquake Information Center reports that earthquakes of 7.0 magnitude' and greater remained "fairly constant" throughout the 20th century."

====================================================

Watchtower 12/1/93

page 6 paragraph 2 Natural Disasters-Is God Responsible?

In this regard, note what the book Natural Disasters-Acts of God or Acts of Man? has to say: "There is no evidence that the climatological mechanisms associated with droughts, floods and cyclones are changing. And no geologist is claiming that the earth movements associated with earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunami (earthquake waves) are becoming more violent." Similarly, the book Earthshock observes: "The rocks of every continent contain a record of innumerable major and minor geological events, every one of which would be a catastrophic disaster to mankind if they occurred today-and it is scientifically certain that such events will occur again and again in the future." In other words, the earth and its dynamic forces have more or less remained the same throughout the ages. Hence, whether or not some statistics indicate an increase of some forms of geologic or other activity, the earth has not become uncontrollably violent in recent times.

10

Reasons for Moving to Wallkill ?

by robhic in

i read a while back about selling the brooklyn facility and moving the printing operations to wallkill (???).

i know it's all about money for the wts, but what reasons did they give for actually going through this involved, expensive process when, bottom line, the end is soon and everything is gonna be killed and destroyed?

why not just "wait on jehovah?".

robhic

Thus sayeth Garybuss:

Robert, there are two rules for ANYTHING the Watch Tower Corporation (Society) does.
Rule #1. Anything the Society does is right.
Rule #2. If the Society ever does anything that does not seem right, see rule #1.

Aha! I kinda figured that but I was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt that they'd at least give their minions the courtesy of trying to make some reasons. Thanks for the answer that seems to definitely be the answer to all questions in dub-land.

Robert