I am not a JW anymore, I do not believe most of what they teach. That's not to say that some things taught by them are still with me, I'm still working out the kinks.
truthseeker
JoinedPosts by truthseeker
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truthseeker
Johnathan,
I use the Holman Christian Standard Bible
Proverbs 8:23-31
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
23 I was formed before ancient times,
from the beginning, before the earth began.24 I was brought forth
when there were no watery depths
and no springs filled with water.25 I was brought forth
before the mountains and hills were established,26 before He made the land, the fields,
or the first soil on earth. -
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truthseeker
Twitch,
I agree. Size doesn't necessarily matter, it's the power we possess :)
God being "nature" is the first in our reality. Michael was then created and through him he created the invisible spiritual reality first, then the visible realm second which reflects the natural order of authority stair-stepped back up to God at the top.
For us, we are flesh and blood first of the natural order, and then we become spiritual by rebirth to God's family. Christ was born as a human baby and then reanimated as a spirit to regain his old position as the Word and received his new position as the King of his own kingdom that his Father had promised.
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truthseeker
God's first move in restoring what went wrong was to ask the Word (who became Jesus Christ) if he would be willing to balance the scale of righteous law by giving his life for Mankind born into secondary sin.
The Word agreed to give his life, taking on mankind’s sin through the ransom sacrifice. In exchange, God promised his first born son a Kingdom for himself and all those that put faith in the ransom through Christ’s sacrificial blood.
God explained that the Word must give up his heavenly home and be made a little lower than he was for a short time, that he must be born of mankind and wear a human container.
Because Satan challenged all of God's creation to be tested, the Word (Jesus) would himself undergo a testing as a human and prove himself without a blemish in order for the ransom to be fulfilled.
God told him he would be called Jesus meaning the “Salvation of Yahweh” and since his anointing was from his Father, he would also be called “Christ” meaning “Messiah” or "Anointed One”. In addition, God asked that the Word be instrumental in removing the reproach that Satan had placed upon His name by being the vindicator of his Father at the expense of his perfect life and the possibility of failing and forevermore losing his own precious existence in creation.
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truthseeker
You don't seem to want to let go of this, still thinking in human father/son terms when in fact we are dealing with Spirit. I have explained this ad naseum. Maybe I haven't been clear or patient enough, and for that I apologize. Perhaps metaphor will help. Irenaeus (d. 200 A.D.) saw the Son and Spirit’s roles as the two hands of the Father. Just as Paul says at Col 1:17: “He is before all things.” He was not created but rather “set up” or “poured out” (Hebrew Nacak) as one pours out an existing libation, or casts existing metal or anoints an existing king (Strong and Vine’s, 188).
I have thoroughly read your explanations, I just don't agree. I understand your arguments but I can't accept them. But we can do that in a spirit of learning. There is no bad feeling on my part here.
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truthseeker
Johnathan,
I see this will be a battle of wills. My quoted comments in red. My response in blue.
Let's start from the beginning and just so you know, I no longer subscribe to the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses and I do not use their New World Translation of the Bible.I said: "each one is believed to be God but they are lumped together as one single God."
You said: "Not really lumped together. One God Almighty, YHWH, with a triune nature."
I said: "There is only one almighty God who is the Father"
You said: "Trinitarians agree. And that Almighty God is YHWH"
I said: "The mighty god being his son Jesus"
You said: "This is a false teaching, and mischaracterizes the Trinity. Jesus is the Mighty God, as it says in Isaiah 9:6, but that God is YHWH and not some little "a god,", as it says in the next two words: the child born to us is Mighty God, "Eternal Father." That is but one of many reasons. Immanent trinity, the nature of God in himself before creation, does not include Jesus who was not yet born. Jesus is God-Man, God the Son. And because the Word is eternal, he could not be created."
And this is where it gets tricky, for you. You said, "Immanent trinity, the nature of God in himself before creation, does not include Jesus who was not yet born," and then you say, "Jesus is God-Man, God the Son. And because the Word is eternal, he could not be created."
You have tripped yourself up here. If Jesus was not yet born, how could God have been triune in nature. And after Jesus was born, this adds a 4th person to the "triune" making a "quadrune"You're basically telling me that Yahweh has a split personality because this is the only way a Triune God could work. And, even if this was the case, it would still mean two individual personalities, not a whole.
Consider John 8:58: ""I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
You said that "Immanent trinity, the nature of God in himself before creation, does not include Jesus who was not yet born"
So tell me Johnathan, who was Jesus referring to when he said this to the Jews? Or are you going to tell me this is just another part of Yahweh?
I said: "[the mighty god being his son Jesus], who was God's first creation"
You said: "This is arianism, and another false teaching. The Word was not created, and the evidence is overwhelming."
I have not seen overwhelming evidence of any kind, but for those who aren't aware, here is the defintion of what I am being accused of...
The Arian concept of Christ is that the Son of God did not always exist, but was created by—and is therefore distinct from—God the Father.
I'm afraid that Arius did not invent this concept, the Bible had it first. Colossians 1:15: "The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."
I submit to you it would be impossible for Jesus to have always existed, because how could a Father and Son exist at the same time?
Are you saying that Proverbs 8:23-31 is wrong?
"The LORD made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began. I was brought forth when there were no watery depths and no springs filled with water. I was brought forth before the mountains and hills were established, before He made the land, the fields, or the first soil on earth. I was there when He established the heavens, when He laid out the horizon on the surface of the ocean, when He placed the skies above, when the fountains of the ocean gushed forth, when He set a limit for the sea so that the waters would not violate His command, when He laid out the foundations of the earth. I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him. I was rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race."This scripture clearly indicates that Christ acknowledged his maker. What more evidence is there to prove that Jesus (the man) had a prehuman existence. Even if you do not accept that Jesus (the man) and Christ (the Son of God) are the same, this scipture proves that Yahweh created the son...or whom do you suppose this to be?
Your points about JWs insertion of the word "other" is moot because I do not subscribe to their belief system or their translation of the Bible.
You said: "However, if, as the Jehovah's Witnesses falsely teach, the preexistent Christ is a created creature only, then the Holy Spirit must also have been created and accordingly there would have been a time when there was no Holy Spirit and therefore God would have lacked power and authority and would not have been omnipotent, according to their theory. But, since the Holy Spirit is eternal, which the Jehovah's Witnesses must concede, and the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ, and this Spirit is the Holy Spirit, Christ the Word must be eternal."
I have no idea what you are talking about. JWs never said the Holy Spirit was created, they have always taught it was God's Active Force, something God has as part of his existence. JWs never said there was never a time before the Holy Spirit was created. You are confusing the issue. I see this as a straw man argument.
The Scriptures do not say they are equal, coeternal or one single God. Matthew 28:19 "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This simply shows they are in unity with each other and does not say that they are all one in the same.
Mark 12:28-30 "One of the scribes approached. When he heard them debating and saw that Jesus answered them well, he asked Him, "Which commandment is the most important of all? "This is the most important," Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength."
Jesus was talking about his Father, not a triune god.
Just as the Word (who was also a God in Yahweh's eyes) had taken Eve from the body of Adam to create her, God had directly created the Word from Himself. And since the Word was created directly from God, it can be said that God also created all things, because the Word is an extension of God, as so are we in unified creation. The creation as a whole is unified as helping and serving one another. Remember the Scripture that says to be great you must be a servant of others. It was The Word (God’s Spokesman), who later became Jesus Christ.
Proverbs 8:30 “I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him."John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify me in Your presence with that glory I had with You before the world existed. “Before the world existed”. The Word was with God before the world existed. The following scripture also shows how Jesus existed as The Word before all else.
John 14:28 You have heard Me tell you, ‘I am going away and I am coming to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.Christ was first The Word and then he became Jesus Christ.
Paul speaks of truly coming to know who Christ was in the following scriptures:
Philippians 3:7-8 But everything that was a gain to me, I have considered to be a loss because of Christ. More than that, I also consider everything to be a loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Because of Him I have suffered the loss of all things and consider them filth, so that I may gain Christ.
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of the woman, and God is the head of Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when everything is subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who subjected everything to Him, so that God may be all in all.
John 5:19 Then Jesus replied, “I assure you: The Son is not able to do anything on His own, but only what He sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does these things in the same way.God is the Creator of spirit energy. The Word was first created as a spirit.
Hebrews 1:7 "And about the angels He says: He makes His angels winds, and His servants a fiery flame;" That reveals they are of powerful design other than flesh.
Luke 24:39 "Look at My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself! Touch Me and see, because a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have."
Spirit energy does not possess flesh. God started off the Word as a spirit. The rest of creation was created by the Word. This is what the Word is all about. It's what eludes people that lack insight. It is also part of what Christ is to be honored concerning his sacrifice. This is the reason why the Trinitarian belief is a false teaching in God's eyes.
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truthseeker
PS,
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.
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truthseeker
Johnathan,
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I've had a look at the Scriptures you quoted and the webpage. To me, who used to be a JW, it still doesn't make sense.
I get the grouping of 3, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
But I say to you, if Jesus never had a beginning then why call him the Son, surely a Son comes after his Father generationally speaking.
You're asking me to believe that Jesus never had a prehuman existence and that he always existed at the same time as his Father and that Father's active force is also a person.
I have to go now but will be back later to check for updates.
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truthseeker
I think some of you are confusing the Holy Spirit or Active Force as being a person.
God's Holy Spirit or Active Force is like an arm on your own vessel.
Unless you move it it is at rest. When you move it it becomes active.
If you pick something up then you are exerting force.
That is how God's spirit works. His Force is what keeps creation in motion. God's extension of His Active Force is that of the angelic class. They are not only His deputies but they keep things in balance within creation.
God's presence is either immediate or in reflection. His reflection is seen in nature by all things that exist and are reflected by his wisdom, i.e. a tree, water, animals.
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truthseeker
OK, let's look at this one chunk at a time...
You fail to understand what "person" means in the trinitarian context.
Definiton of person:
- A human being regarded as an individual.
- Used in legal or formal contexts to refer to an unspecified individual.
The three spiritual Persons or hypostases of the triune God are not to be confused with material human beings, persons like you or I. [Top]
The Jehovah’s Witnesses erroneously think of “Person” as an individual self-conscious human person (Encyclopedia of Religion, 57), and we humans don’t engage in the kind of conduct the three Persons of the Trinity do, such as inner dialogue where people combined within a human person speak to each other (that's probably because the defintion of a person, is just that, an individual - what you just said about inner dialogue where people combined speak to each other indicates a split personality). Or, they argue that the Holy Spirit cannot be a person because it appeared as a dove or flames of fire, never in the form of a human. And, it seems irrational to them that one such person can inhabit another person, so the Holy Person cannot be a person (Should You Believe, Chapter 6). They write:
On one occasion the holy spirit appeared as a dove. On another occasion it appeared as tongues of fire - never as a person. (Should You Believe, Chapter 8).
[R]egarding Samson, Judges 14:6 relates: “The spirit of Yahweh seized on him and though he had no weapon in his hand he tore the lion in pieces.” (JB) Did a divine person actually enter or seize Samson, manipulating his body to do what he did? No, it was really “the power of the LORD [that] made Samson strong. (TEV) (Should You Believe, Chapter 6) (emphasis added).
A comparison of Bible texts that refer to the holy spirit shows that it is spoken of as ‘filling’ people; they can be ‘baptized’ with it; and they can be “anointed” with it … None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person. (Reasoning from the Scriptures [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1985], 380) (Reasoning)