This has certainly been an interesting, if not varied discussion!
Thank you to all those who participated, hopefully we will all have learnt something.
Truthseeker
truthseeker
JoinedPosts by truthseeker
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truthseeker
Hi AGuest,
Thank you for your reply which I read with interest.
I've included the portions you have commented on otherwise quoting the entire post would take up many pages!!!
He has two (2) "wives", dear one: the spirit realm... which is free (as are her children)... and the physical realm... which is enslaved (as are HER children). The first is named "Jerusalem Above" and is represented by "Sarah"... and the NEW Covenant, which is a covenant for FREE sons. The second is the earth and is represented by "Hagar"... and the OLD Covenant, which is a covenant for SLAVE sons. The verses at Galatians that I cited explain this.
OK, I see, you are using a metaphor because there is no human equivalent for what you are saying here, though you are using the word "wives" in terms of the relationship between God and the spirit/fleshly realm.
God's purpose in creating Adam was that he and his wife Eve were to live forever in paradise.
No, dear one, that was not the PURPOSE - that was the GIFT. The PURPOSE... was to hide the seed (of the Woman) from its enemies in the spirit realm... until such time as it (they) could be "fertilized" by God's holy spirit (semen) so as to be MORE of His sons by that Woman. Together with Christ, these make up the ONE "christ child" - he being the HEAD... they being the Body. Ephesians 6:12; Revelation 12:1, 2, 5, 17; 2 Corinthians 4:7; Colossians 1:18; 1 Corinthians 12:18
Yes, life is a gift so I stand to be corrected there. I think we differ on the purpose of human life. Scriptures indicate that the Word had joy in the creation of man.
To keep with His original creation of man through Adam, and not keep trying to find an alternate human line that would obey Him,
I am not quite sure what you mean here... or how/why you've come to this understanding, so I can't comment on it other than to say there was never going to be an "alternate" human line. There was always only going to be one... and only one... and because it held the seed, it HAD to be redeemed.
It has been said that God could have kept creating different lines of humans in an attempt to find a pair which upheld his laws, but as you said, there never would have been an alternate human line.
If they obeyed Him they would have life but we all know what happened
This is not quite accurate; it wasn't that if they obeyed God they would have life. It's that if they obeyed Him they would LIVE. They already had life, dear one... and it wasn't taken away because they "disobeyed." They not PUNISHED with death; death was merely a CONSEQUENCE of their actions.
My mistake, thank you for the correction.
and because their offspring were born into sin, it can be said they inherited Adam and Eve’s sin secondhand.
The offspring inherited the BODY Adham and Eve were given after there sin (a "long garment of skin")... which garment had sin and death in IT. Since the bodies they possessed by the time they procreated had sin and death IN them... this was passed on to their offspring.
I beg to differ here.The reason God did not keep creating other humans as test subjects, is because his covenant was with Adam’s line of decent.
Ummmm... there was no covenant with Adham's line of descent, dear one. There was a covenant... with the Woman. A "marriage vow" of sorts. As to her... and, more importantly, her children. The first covenant He made with MAN... occurred many, many generations later, when He covenanted with Noah not to completely destroy man (and beast) by water ever again.
Ultimately, God could have destroyed the human race by wiping out Adam and Eve, but as I mentioned above, the Word, Christ Jesus, found joy in the creation of mankind, despite our imperfections. God would not let Satan thwart his will for the human race, but he would not go through hundreds of human pairs to make it happen.Adam's line is under a covenant with Yahweh though the Bible doesn't implicity state that. The Devils' demons materizlied before the flood, took on flesh and became human but it did not come under the covenant because it was not of the Adamic line of descent. This doomed the fallen angels, the fathers of the Nephilim. For the children of these fallen angels it was like being born out of wedlock and not knowing who their father was. They were an outcast in God's eyes, something he felt should never have happened in creation.
The fallen angels who materialized human flesh, they were also outcasts. God did not want them as humans, if he had, he would have given them that right, but in God's eyes they lowered themselves in rank to become less than what they were. If God wanted them dead, he would have not allowed them to decouple their spirit from flesh, thus they would have drowned at the Flood but her chose to keep them around so they could continue their testing of humans.The human line comes from that single man and woman. To keep his will in line for what he originally wanted, God sought to do it through the first human couple. If he had killed them immediately, none of us would be here but that was not God's will.
He NEVER killed them, dear one. Like many others, you are relying on the LIE... that God warned that if Adham and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good (life) AND Bad (death), He would kill them. NEVER was that the plan, NEVER was that ever said or implied! He WARNED them that IF they ate... they would die... BECAUSE of eating from that particular tree. Like a loving parent who warns his children not to touch the stove because if they DID... they would be burned! NOT that if they did... he would KILL them for doing so! To attribute such a thing to the Most Holy One of Israel is to paint Him unrighteous. Why? Because the "punishment" would never fit the crime! So, that, dear one, can NEVER be!
I accept that, God did not kill them directly, but the implication was Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the fruit.He "punished" them by (1) giving them a long garment of skin (which would enslave them as well as cause them to know pain... and death... but they would need in order to live in the world OUTSIDE the garden, the land of which He (2) cursed; then (3) putting them OUT of the garden (so that they couldn't get back to the Tree of LIFE... and eat and live forever!); and (4) blocking the way so that they could not re-enter.
Pretty harsh, yes, but not death - He didn't KILL them. He never even CONSIDERED killing them! Why? Because... THEY HELD THE SEED. If THEY died... the SEED would die! He couldn't kill them, then; rather, He had to make a provision to redeem that seed! And... He did!
He wanted mankind to survive, therefore, God did not want to keep testing different lines of humans.
He DID want earthling man to survive, so that the seed could survive... and be born. Had nothing to do with other lines of humans, though...
Agree on this
This is where undeserved kindness enters because it helps to bring those that love God and His Son back to Him.
I understand undeserved kindness (mercy) and how it brings those who love God and Christ back to Him. I do not understand, however, how this relates to what occurred in Eden with regard TO those sons. Those sons receive undeserved kindness/mercy as to their OWN sins... not Adham's or Eve's... Otherwise, what you're suggesting is that "we" must pay for THEIR sins. We DIE, yes, because of their sins... because of the BODY'S we inherited from and thus possess due to them. But that death is TEMPORARY (well, can be!). On the other hand, it is our OWN sins that we must be forgiven for... every one of us... not theirs... so as to live FOREVER. To have to pay for THEIR sins... would also be unrighteous. It would come under the "law" of the sins of the father coming upon the sons... which law was done away with long, long ago.
Agreed, but I want to clarify I was not suggesting that we're paying for their sins, they paid for theirs already. We must pay for ours and seek forgiveness.
We are not held RESPONSIBLE for their sins; we only reap the results. Since we're NOT responsible... a Saviour was provided to turn back those results. IF, however, we also have our OWN sins to answer for... and we all DO... then simply undoing what Adham/Eve DID... would not put us in line for life, dear one.
This is where I must disagree. Death is a state of inactivity whereby the life force of a spirit or individual ceases to exist.
The force of life cannot cease to exist, dear one... unless it is destroyed. Hence, the Lake of Fire, where even Death is hurled. In the meantime, the individual only sleeps... lies in a state of unconsciousness. Until he/she is resurrected... either to life... or to judgment. If that life force ceased to exist, what, then, can BE resurrected? There is nothing TO resurrect... for "it" ceases to exist, if what you suggest is true. If it ceases to exist... it is completely and utterly GONE. No... longer... in... existence. Yet, there will be a resurrection... with those in the grave/memorial tombs, etc., sea, Hades/Sheol... coming OUT... either to life or to judgment. How can this BE... if they no longer exist??
How did Christ go and PREACH to the spirits of those who had died... if HIS spirit... and theirs... had CEASED to EXIST???
OK. I agree that the force or spirit of an individual can only die if it is destroyed or turned off. We live in a mortal human container and are limited by our fleshly vessel. At death, the spirit, or chord, is severed and Christ transforms us to a spirit creature. Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Yes, remember your Creator now while you are young, before the silver cord of life snaps and the golden bowl is broken. Don't wait until the water jar is smashed at the spring and the pulley is broken at the well."
You mentioned if the life force ceases to exist, what can be resurrected. I submit that if there is a physical resurrection, those who are asleep will be resurrected into a new body, that looked like their former self, while God in effect downloads our consciousness into that body, but this is my speculation.
If God decrees that a spirit should no longer exist, that spirit is exited from God's mind where nothing can live.
You said that when we die we simply are asleep, but then you said "How did Christ go and PREACH to the spirits of those who had died." - so which is it, do we die and go to sleep or do some die and others live in a hereafter?
Death is not a person, though I see the symbolism in that God will "swallow up death forever."
Death absolutely is a person, a spirit being. He is the "one" who took the breath of all of Egypt's firstborn before the exodus. He is the one that is named "King" over the abyss... the pit... where SPIRITS that sin are confined. He... is also cast into the Lake of Fire... and so swallowed up forever. He is the one whose "sting" torments us... but only as a sting because his "bite" is not permanent. HE is the one who "takes" our loved ones... NOT God!... because HE is the one to whom our foregather, Adham, SOLD us.
Death can be a person if you want to look at it in the sense of someone who is commissioned to carry out an execution or in the case above, the angel of death destroyed Egypt's firstborn before the Exodus. So yes, I agree only on this principle.
But REPURCHASE us... Christ gave HIS life to Death. Death, however, was not able to hold HIM because he was given the "keys" so as to release himself FROM Death's grip.
Death is not a human, no. But he is definitely a personage, a spirit being... "the last enemy".
I don't know if you're using an allegory here.
It took many centuries for Adam and Eve to die. Since God did not immediately kill them, some of the angels took note of this.
It took many centuries for them to die for one reasons: the effect of eating from the Tree of Life took time to wear off. Remember, had they gotten back in and ATE... they would have lived... FOREVER. Ate... just ONCE. Once... and they would LIVE FOREVER. Does that not tell you the power and effect of THAT tree... from which they had been eating all along (because they could eat from EVERY tree in the garden EXCEPT the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad. Every tree... INCLUDING the Tree of Life... which they absolutely DID eat of... and regularly!
Agreed, but I will say that on the day they ate from the tree, they began to die, not just physically, but spiritually.
After a few hundred years when mankind had grown and Satan was still free, the angels thought God was not going to do anything to the first human pair of the Devil.
Ummmm... this is a serious WTBTS error, dear one! God DID something: He kicked them OUT and made them fend for themselves for the most part! They had it GOOD in the garden, but... no more. He didn't kill them, no... but that was never part of the plan anyway! He never said, ever even INTIMATED that He would kill them! That is MAN's manner of punishment for such a transgression, not God's, not at all!
After several hundred years had passed and mankind was multiplying quickly, Satan persuaded many angels to leave their assignments in heaven and come to Earth. The angels were in the dark regarding God's plan for creation, they did not fully understand they were going into Satan's trap. They thought God was slow regarding his promise to destroy sin so they left their station and went to Earth. It should be noted that they materialized as both men and women, it was whichever they had a preference for.
They did not know that 1,000 years is like one day to God, so they grew impatient,
Wait... spirit beings were around "aeons" before man. How would they have NOT known? They were there when the physical realm came into existence... which took quite some time. Time is nothing to THEM - it only has relativity for US. The impatient occurred NOT because nothing was done about Adham and Eve - there was a rebellion already brewing, hence the NEED to hide the seed. Belial (Satan) brough that rebellion into THIS realm - HE was the first to "rebel" when he lied to Eve. Why did he do this? Because he... and other spirit beings... RESENTED that the seed would inherit the kingdom! They believed it should go to THEM... not to tiny, puny, whiney, disrespectful, disloyal, and unfaithful MAN.
When God EXTENDED His love to man... these grew even more wrathful... and so set out to destroy that seed. Hence, Satan started with getting Adham to SELL that seed... in exchange for the "right" to KNOW death (bad)... and yet, live. Only two held the "keys" to that right: God... and Death. Since Adham was convinced that God was withholding it FROM him... he made a deal with Death. Except... both of them underestimated God: Adham, in that he died after all... and Death, when HE accepted a NEW "deal" - Christ... in exchange for all of Adham's progeny. Death took that "deal" believing himself to be the "winner"... because he would get the Son. No Son... no heir to the kingdom.
Satan successfully tempted some of the angels away from their rightful abode in heaven. They materialized on Earth in human form and married human women. They told Earth's inhabitants about the secrets of heaven as well as the secrets of the Heavenly Court. The angels that took human form were not of man's "one flesh". Eve was of the same flesh as Adam since she was created from Adam's rib, but the fallen angels materialized a counterfeit flesh. This can be found in the book of Enoch.
But, again, that Son was given "KEYS"... so that Death could not hold him in HIS (Death's) realm. Those keys were not literal metal sticks - they are faith, love, and justice. By means of THESE, Christ was able to release himself FROM Death... and death's realm. When he died... HIS spirit did not cease - no, he went and PREACHED to the spirits of others who had died... as well as spirit beings who are confined to the "pit", the lowest part of the world of the dead.
but in God's mind, Adam and Eve did die in the day God said they would.
Another WTBTS teaching. They BEGAN to die, yes, but didn't. And that "a 1,000 years is as one day" has absolutely NOTHING to do with Adham and Eve's life span... but Christ. Oy vey, dear one... you really should consider letting it ALL go... and rather than trying to put new wine into an OLD wineskin... starting over with an entirely NEW wineskin! Tear it DOWN... ALL THE WAY down... to the foundation... and let the "Cornerstone" build on it, again.
I take exception to letting it all go, I have simply told you what I believe. If you say you have spoken to the spirit directly I cannot argue with that.More angels took note and they pursued their own selfish desires, wanting to live on earth as humans.
The Nephilim? No, no, dear one. Like Satan, they were SENT here. PLACED here... "in the earth." This was their TERRITORY (as Eden was Satan's - Ezekiel 28:13-17). They had a reason and PURPOSE to be here! That reason/purpose did NOT, however, include taking human women as wives. No more than it included Satan (who was supposed to look after and protect the garden and its occupants) talking Adham and Eve into eating in opposition to what God has instructed them!
Some of the fallen angels did want to live on Earth as humans. And like all humans, they were naturally curious when it came to the act of love, which is probably what Satan tempted them with. Also do not forget that they would have bonded with their hybrid children giving them even less reason to go back to their proper abode in heaven.
During the years before the Flood, numerous attempts were made to gain entry to the sacred garden and procure the fruit. It can be assumed that many died in the course of doing this, including the hybrid children. Because of the flaming sword, it was impossible for any of the fallen angels to get in the garden to retrieve fruit for their wives, although it should be noted the fruit would only have benefited thier wives and not their Nephilim children.
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I believe that when we die, we pass over to the spirit realm. Those marked by Christ because of their conduct "cross" over into the light, they become Holy Ghosts. They can then petition to be a guide to humans on Earth.
Can't be, dear one... because none precede others to the resurrection... excluding, of course, Enoch, Moses, and Elijah, three who were transferred (changed) so as not to SEE death (which is why Peter, James, and John saw the latter two WITH our Lord when he transfigured. All others must wait (Revelation 6:11) until the number is complete and Christ returns to gather them (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17).
Yes, when we die, I believe our spirit, our essence survives the death of our human vessel and passes over to the other side. You're confusing spirit with the fleshly vessel. You may have heard it said that when someone is drowning or is close to death, their life passes before their eyes, this may have a physical explanation, that their memories are being pulled out of their brain and into their new spiritual body after they have died a mortal death. Consider the many scriptures that allude to life after death. Why would Jesus tell his disciples not to be afraid of those who kill the body but rather fear him who can destroy both "soul" and body. Those who pass over are changed in a twinkling of an eye.
Those person who pass over and receive an education concerning Yahew's sovereign Law and choose to reject his Rulership, they become converts, because they are converted to Satan's way of thinking.
I know absolutely nothing of this... and not sure where YOU got it... so I will reserve comment, for now.
They want a world they left behind not a world of righteousness under God's rulership. The converts remain on this planet and spend their time bothering people, playing tricks on them, especially in the ghost hunter TV shows.
Okaaay...
Let me explain....converts are humans that have died and passed on to the spirit realm. They are considered separate from mankind because of redemption. This means that although Satan lost some of mankind, that is those who died fathful, he does gains others which are those who have passed over. The converts cannot enter the heavens because they have not atoned for minor sins, so they are denied crossing over and remain on Earth. There is a difference between passing over and crossing over.
Only after Christ ascended to the Father, could spirits enter the light if they were considered worthy. Those humans that refused couseling after learning of God's laws, are denied access. Over the milleniums, millions of those passing have rejected God's counsel because they prefer a world they left behind, so in effect they become converts because they are converted to Satan's way of thinking.
Since I do understand that spirits DO live... I cannot dispute this; however, I have not heard of such from my Lord... and have never ran into such a spirit, although one of my gifts is discerning/hearing spirits. I have to say, however, that this seems in direct contradiction of your assertion above that when one dies their life force... and thus, spirit... "ceases to exist." How can a spirit, young OR old... seek revenge, hang around and haunt a crime scene... or deny their life is over... if their life FORCE... has ceased to exist?? Or am I misunderstanding you (again)?
I didn't say their life force ceased to exist. Spirits are like people, some were people. If someone upsets them they will take it personally.
As for those who led vile lives, they are spiritual tagged. When they pass over, they are apprehended and taken to the Creator where their crimes are played out by witnesses.
Before the Judgment?? How can that BE?? Is there more than one "Judgment"... something other than the one that takes place AFTER the 1,000 years have ended, AFTER Gog and Magog, the Wild Beast, False Prophet, and Satan have been destroyed (Revelation 20:7-15; Daniel 7:9-14)??
Sentence is passed and they are taken to dark realms of imprisonment until the final judgement.
So, two judgments, then? An initial one before the Creator... and then a "final" one? Interesting. I have not heard this, sorry. Can you share with us, please, from where/whom you received this understanding? I would appreciate it as I have nothing to base a reference on and perhaps that would help ME see what you [see].
Whatever crime was committed, it is bound to have been observed by those on the other side who are well aware of what happened. When a crime has been committed, the angels are deputized to handle this and the criminal is tagged spiritually. After death, these individuals are not permitted to cross into the higher planes, they are apprehended and taken into custody. There crimes are shown in visual detail to the Creator and witness is given concerning their act. Sentence is passed and the offender is "locked away" in solitary confinement until the day of judgement.
I think that's enough, for now... and I, too, am enjoying our discussion." I hope you don't take my... ummmm... dissentions/disagreements... as an indication of a lack of love; nothing could be further from the truth. I have learned that one can possess a measure of holy spirit and yet not have an accurate knowledge as to God or Christ. Like Apollos. But "iron" sharpens "iron" does it not... and so perhaps we will both learn something "new." I intend to ask my Lord about all that you have stated here that I have not heard... and will certainly share what I hear, if am so privileged.
Again, peace to you... and thank you for taking the time with me!
Peace to you as well
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
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Last weekends assembly low-lights in Newburgh, ny
by Silent_Scream in1) on saturday's last talk by the do, he made a cool illustration.
he said "imagine my wife found a picture of another woman in my wallet.
and when she approaches my about it, i say 'oh, thats only because she reminds me of you.
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truthseeker
Thanks for the notes!
What the Society is most afraid of I think is social networking.
In the old days, you had email and it was not possible to know your contact's friends. With Facebook, you can not only see who your contact's friends are, you can go to their profile and learn more about them.
The Society knows the power of communication and it has lost the battle, therefore it is bringing in apostate arguments into their talks and magazines (think of their recent defense of the 607 BCE date) in the hopes that whoever does not already know about our concerns will simply ignore them using the Society's straw-man arguments.
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truthseeker
The real question is how does the anti-typical Chewbacca find fulfilment in the prophecy concerning the seven times?
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truthseeker
AGuest,
Peace to you. I am enjoying our discussion and while we may not come to an agreement on all things, we are discussing this in a spirit of understanding.
I am not familiar with what you said about God's free wife - are you referring to Sarah as a spirit being, that is Jerusalem Above? That kind of complicates the issue if you don't mind me saying so.
I don't mind and I totally understand. I will explain:
Some of the events recorded in the Bible have a previous or subsequent fulfillment. For example, the situation with Joseph and Pharaoh pre-depicts the position of Christ, the Holy One of Israel (and so "Joseph") and JAH, the MOST Holy One of Israel (and so "Pharaoh"): second in command, over ALL of Pharaoh's belongings and everything in the kingdom... except Pharaoh himself.
I agree with this.
In the same light, the situation with Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, Ishmael, and Isaac pre-depict the situation with JAH, "the Woman" of Genesis 3 and Revelation 12 ("Sarah/Jerusalem Above"), the Earth ("Hagar"), sons of the FLESH/fleshly body ("Ishmael")... and the sons of the SPIRIT/promise.("Isaac").
This is new to me, I shall have to give it some thought.
Because he showed himself to be God's friend, Abraham was "promised" a child by his (free) wife, Sarah, who, for most of her life, was barren. This depicts the "promise" that the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, had with the "Woman", Jerusalem Above... the SPIRIT realm... to produce a son, as well. It is what is spoken of at Revelation 12:1-6... and that "son" is the Christ. The DIFFERENCE is that, unlike Sarah, Abraham's wife, THIS "woman"... will have more than ONE child: she will have MANY - Isaiah 54:1-8. She is "Jerusalem Above"... the "mother" of those born IN THE SPIRIT... by means of HOLY SPIRIT... and the promise to HER is represented by the NEW Covenant. This is because, like Sarah, Abraham's wife, SHE (Jerusalem Above) is FREE. Therefore, the covenant with HER children is so as to make THEM free, as well! Galatians 4:22-26. Free from WHAT? Every thing to do with the PHYSICAL body... including death! Sarah was Abraham's free wife, and so Isaac is the true heir. This is why "Israel" was God's chosen people - because of Abraham and the child he had by his free wife, Sarah. Israel are the descendants of Isaac.
Are you saying that Yahweh had a wife and if so, was this wife eternal or created? Jerusalem above is her name? Are we talking of a seperate entity?In the MEANTIME, while waiting for Sarah to have a child, Abraham was given a son by his "slave" wife, Hagar. This was Ishmael, who, although born FIRST, was NOT the rightful heir. Because his mother was not the true wife, but a concubine given to him to produce a son. This depicts the child that the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, made with the "woman", the earth... the PHYSICAL realm... so as to produce another son. It is what is spoken of at Genesis 2:7... and THAT son... was Adham. THIS "woman", the earth... is the mother of those born in the manner of the FLESH, through women of flesh... versus by means of holy spirit... and the result of this is the OLD Covenant. This is because, like Hagar, Abraham's concubine, she (the earth/physical realm) is NOT free. Therefore, the covenant with HER children binds and enslaves THEM! Galatians 4:22-26. To what? Everything to do with the physical body... including death! Hagar was Abraham's SLAVE "wife", and so HER son, Ishmael, could never be the true heir. And so, like Ishamel... who grew jealous of Isaac... these sons "persecute Isaac"... the sons of the TRUE wife. In the same way, those sons of the FLESH persecute the sons of the SPIRIT.
This is because, like their forefather, Adham, the sons of the FLESH have CHOSEN another "father": the Adversary, Belial, who you know as "Satan" and "Devil." They do this because of what HE (Satan) promises them NOW... (which is why Adham sold HIS seed out - for the promise of eating and being "like" God... knowing good (life) AND bad (death)... NOW). They want what he offered our Lord... which our Lord COULD have taken and experienced NOW... but rejected... for the hope he had of what was to COME.
God's purpose in creating Adam was that he and his wife Eve were to live forever in paradise. To keep with His original creation of man through Adam, and not keep trying to find an alternate human line that would obey Him, God gave undeserved kindness beause Adam and Eve were warned that life and death rested in their hands. If they obeyed Him they would have life but we all know what happened and because their offspring were born into sin, it can be said they inherited Adam and Eve’s sin secondhand. Although God forgave the sin it was only through the Adam and Eve's offspring who had never been perfect.
This had to be accomplished according to God’s wisdom and laws. To do that, He asked the Word if he would willingly give up his life in exchange for sinful humans. The Word agreed to do so and in exchange, God agreed to give Christ a Kingdom with those that were saved.
The reason God did not keep creating other humans as test subjects, is because his covenant was with Adam’s line of decent. The human line comes from that single man and woman. To keep his will in line for what he originally wanted, God sought to do it through the first human couple. If he had killed them immediately, none of us would be here but that was not God's will. He wanted mankind to survive, therefore, God did not want to keep testing different lines of humans. This is where undeserved kindness enters because it helps to bring those that love God and His Son back to Him.
In contrast, like THEIR forefather, CHRIST... the sons of the SPIRIT... remain faithful and loyal to the Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies. They REJECT the promises held out to them NOW... for the HOPE they have of what is to COME.
More verses/scripture to help you understand this might be Romans 9:6-9; Galatian 4:27-31; Matthew 4:1-11; Genesis 3:1-7; 18:9-15; and 21:1-21; however, there are MANY more, way too many to post here. In fact, these issues/dramas is what ALL that is TRUE in the Bible is entirely ABOUT: the two different sons of God (free/slave), their mothers (Sarah/Jerusalem Above/the spirit realm and Hagar/the earth/the physical realm), and the two covenants (Old/Moses and New/Christ) that pertain to them... and the underlying CHALLENGE made by the Adversary of ALL of them... and most particularly "SARAH'S" seed (Revelation 12:17)... is that, rather than be like their "father", Abraham/God... they will only "love" Him IF He cares for and prospers them. But should He ever remove His hand/blessing... they WILL... every one of them, "Isaac" AND "Ishmael" (whom Abraham loved, BOTH)... will curse Him to His very face. Even if it means death! Job 1:6-12; 2:1-9
Thanks for clarification.
Again, you are quite welcome!
Agreed here. There are many different ways to understand the vernacular "holy spirit"
There are! Yet, how are WE to know which is meant/true at a particular place? I know of only one way: ASK... the One who IS that Spirit... and who dispenses God's holy spirit!
At the source
Yes! Because the further down the "river" you drink, the greater the risk of pollutants/diminished nutrients! In the case of "living water", then... and TRUTH... one should endeavor to drink... FROM THE SOURCE! Christ is the ONLY Source of these, dear one - he is the only One appointed by God to DISPENSE both! There is no other... no "third" entity! That is a LIE!
In the spirit realm, death is the turning off of energy.
Not quite, dear one. Death IS an entity. He is actually a KING. His realm is the "abyss"... which is LOWEST place in the spirit realm. His name is Abaddon/Apollyon. He is also called The Destroyer and [the angel of] Destruction. He SWALLOWS up that "energy"... which is the source of life. Such "feeding" gives HIM strength (although not anywhere near the strength of the Most Holy One of Israel - not even close). He is controlled by JAH. He has NO authority in the SPIRIT realm - He exists there, but he doesn't have the authority to "feed" there. In contrast, he was GIVEN authority to feed HERE... by Adham. He actually entered INTO this realm through Adham:
This is where I must disagree. Death is a state of inactivity whereby the life force of a spirit or individual ceases to exist. Death is not a person, though I see the symbolism in that God will "swallow up death forever."
When his (Death's) agent, Belial, convinced Adham that he could have what he WOULD have received (knowing good (life) AND bad (death) and still live) NOW... rather than waiting until the time that the Most Holy of Israel GRANTED it to him... Adham exchanged the life of his wife, Eve, and that of all of their children... for that opportunity. In doing so, he "opened the way" for Death to ENTER... and begin consuming "energy"... life... in THIS realm. The penalty for that, though, was that Adham (and Eve) were the first to begin succumbing to that result - Death began to "feed" on THEM, first!
It took many centuries for Adam and Eve to die. Since God did not immediately kill them, some of the angels took note of this. After a few hundred years when mankind had grown and Satan was still free, the angels thought God was not going to do anything to the first human pair of the Devil. They did not know that 1,000 years is like one day to God, so they grew impatient, but in God's mind, Adam and Eve did die in the day God said they would. More angels took note and they pursued their own selfish desires, wanting to live on earth as humans.
There is a bit more to this situation, as well, but for the sake of brevity, I won't go further into it, other than to say that Adham COULD have stopped the entire thing... had he only did what Christ did... and offered up HIS life... as a "sacrifice" and atonement for what HIS wife did. Like Christ, who offered up his life on behalf of HIS "Bride"... Adham COULD have asked that Eve be forgiven and he be taken FOR her... rather than choosing to eat WITH her... which would have shown his love... for her AND God. In that case, HER sin would have been covered by HIS sacrifice... and HIS sacrifice would have been turned back (like Isaac's)... because it would have been an act of LOVE (for which there is NO law and which covers a multitude of transgressions, even Eve's). He did NOT do this, however; rather, he sought his OWN selfish longing... to the detriment of all of mankind... HIS children... to date.
Keep in mind that, like "holy spirit," the word/term "death" has more than one meaning. It means the absence of life, the future prospect of those waiting destruction, as well as a spirit entity who has the authority to "feed" on certain life forces (spirit/"energy"). Exodus 12:29; Hebrews 11:28; 1 Corinthians 10:10
It is a reality that can happen on both sides of the spectrum
No, dear one: death does NOT occur in the spirit realm. Death EXISTS... but spirits don't die (which is why they are "immortal") - they must be destroyed... and can only BE destroyed... by fire.
I was told that death can occur in the spirit realm. It is a switching off of energy. Only the creator can reanimate spirits. As for immortality, only the Creator has true immortality, all other creation exists because God exists and without God all things would cease to exist because by his spirit we live.
1 Timothy 6:13-16
New International Version (NIV)
13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
The same law that applies to those that pass over - rebirth to life - is the same law that gives rebirth on the other side.
I must admit that I don't quite understand what you're saying, here. No one "passes" over, per se... with the exception of few: Enoch, Moses, Elijah. And, of course, our Lord. The first three were transferred (transfigured/changed) so as not to see death. Our Lord died, went to the world of the dead... even as far as the entry to the pit (abyss) to preach to the spirits there (so as to give them opportunity to put faith in him, even after death)... and then entered into the "highest" part of the spirit realm, the MOST Holy.
When people die, however, one of two things occurs: (1) if they belong to JAH, through Christ... their spirit returns to Him... to lie sleeping "under the altar," until such time as it is resurrected (in the spirit bodies/"white robes" they receive - Ecclesiastes 12:7; Revelation 6:9-11); or (2) if they don't belong to JAH... their spirits go to the world of the dead (Sheol/Hades)... where they sleep... conscious of nothing that occurs in the realm of the living (either in the spirit realm OR the physical realm - Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; Revelation 20:13).
Our Lord's depiction recorded at Luke 16:19-31 covers a short period before one "enters" into Sheol/Hades and sleeps there... while others are reclining with Abraham at his (Christ's) table in the kingdom. Because Abraham and Lazarus are seen "reclining" (Matthew 8:11)... versus sleeping under the altar... this depiction is future and occurs after Christ has returned and raised up those who belong to HIM... to join him in the "wedding feast" in the kingdom... but not yet completed the separating of the "sheep" and "goats." Matthew 25:31-46
Again, I must disagree here. The JWs do not believe in life after death. I believe that when we die, we pass over to the spirit realm. Those marked by Christ because of their conduct "cross" over into the light, they become Holy Ghosts. They can then petition to be a guide to humans on Earth.
Those person who pass over and receive an education concerning Yahew's sovereign Law and choose to reject his Rulership, they become converts, because they are converted to Satan's way of thinking. They want a world they left behind not a world of righteousness under God's rulership. The converts remain on this planet and spend their time bothering people, playing tricks on them, especially in the ghost hunter TV shows.
As for babies and children, they’re under special arrangement with the Creator when they pass over. Christ made note of this at Matthew 18:10: "See that you don’t look down on one of these little ones, because I tell you that in heaven their angels continually view the face of My Father in heaven." Sometimes problems occur with children who are up in age and can understand some of what has happened.
Young children are not required to do anything more than, receive the promised hope mentioned at Colossians 1:5 "The hope that is being reserved for you in the heavens.” Children who are of an age where they understand what has happened are sometimes apprehensive about accepting the Creator's arrangement because they do not wish to leave the first plane of existence. They do not understand fully what has happened to them and they want to be back with their parents. In some cases, children are watched over by Holy Ghosts until they can be persuaded to leave the lower planes.
Those who were unlawfully killed or died an accidental death pass over immediately. In the case of murder, the victims do not normally seek revenge. If a victim that was crossed over does not want to go with Holy Ghosts they cannot be made to do so. In many cases, victims are so upset that someone took their life, they stay where the crime took place, often haunting it, because they cannot accept their life is over. In most cases, they had a full life ahead of them, wife, kids, career etc. They are left alone to work things out.
As for those who led vile lives, they are spiritual tagged. When they pass over, they are apprehended and taken to the Creator where their crimes are played out by witnesses. Sentence is passed and they are taken to dark realms of imprisonment until the final judgement.
It is then that you come to understand that Yahweh is the Law-giver, the only source of life.
For me, I came to understand it when our Lord explained and showed it to me. He did not explain the Most Holy One of Israel as a "law-giver." To the contrary, he explained Him to me as a law FORGIVER... One who is merciful, slow to anger, and abundant in loving kindness. He told me that it is those who are concerned WITH "law"... who can't truly see God... becauseGod is seen NOT through "law"... but through LOVE. He said that looking to "law" puts a veil on the HEART, but looking to Christ REMOVES that veil. That is not to say that there are no laws... or that those that exist should be ignored, no. His point was that if one concerns oneself with knowing God... through knowing HIM (Christ)... rather than trying to "see" Him through "laws"... of whatever nature... one will see the TRUTH... and the true depiction. Whereas, when one tries to see God through looking at laws... one will see a very distorted picture.
Which is what most SEE... and so why most either exploit others by using "God"... or end up "hating" Him: because all they can see are the laws... which they either use to [try and] control/oppress their fellowman... or resent and perceive as burdensome... due to their perceived application to themselves/those they love.
If they would turn to Christ, though... and look at HIM... they would have their sight "cleared up" and see the TRUTH: that God IS love and His laws/commandments are NOT burdensome, either upon us... or as we might apply them to others. To the contrary, they grant FREEDOM; they are the ONLY way for man to "truly BE free" - by following the laws of God. Not as MAN knows and teaches them... but as CHRIST knows... and teaches... them!
We came into existence through raw energy
Yes! That "raw energy," however, is none other that the TRUE Light... PURE energy... CHRIST! Although HE did not create us... we came into existence... EVERYTHING came into existence... THROUGH him!
and without God, no cohesion exists for us to live. Without God's spirit we have no life.
No TRUE life, no. We really are dead. It's just a matter of time before our bodies... and, for some, spirits... catch up with that "reality." Which has to do with the "speed"... of TIME.
It seems that most arguments concerning the Trinity and Holy Spirit are due to different translations of the Bible
Perhaps. I think there is more to it than just that, though...
, if only we had one GOOD translation that everyone accepted, half the arguments would probably disappear.
No, because it would still come down to personal interpretation... even of what various things stated in that ONE version "meant." We would have the SAME problem we have NOW: people relying on their OWN understanding... rather than going to the SOURCE... the One whom it's all ABOUT. because no matter how many versions... one or many... if folks don't TRULY believe that he is ALIVE... and regardless of whether they believe he was resurrected, most DON'T believe he is ALIVE... and SPEAKS... they will continue to look to a book... rather than to the ONE... the "copper serpent"... LIFTED UP... while we are in this "wilderness." Rather than looking to HIM... keeping their gaze/eyes on HIM... which they must have FAITH to do... faith to WALK by... they walk by SIGHT. And so, need to "see" it... in writing. Rather than see HIM.
That is the very gist of the problems, the confusion, the misleadings, the oppressions, the falsehoods, the lies, etc. They keep LOOKING... at the wrong THING.
I hope this helps, dear TS. I realize that it's a lot... but your comments prompted it... because, while they are SINCERE, they are not according to ACCURATE knowledge. Such knowledge CANNOT be gained from reading the Bible, however, dear one. Or from reading the commentary of scholars, theologians, and scribes. It can ONLY come from the One who KNOWS God and the MIND of God: His Son, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, my Lord, King, Master, Saviour, Redeemer... and "husbandly-owner"... JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... who is His "christ."
Again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and fellow slave of Christ,
SA
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truthseeker
Qcmbr, Poopsiecakes and AQguest
My apologies for my comments about who can/cannot participate.
Truthseeker
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truthseeker
Qcmbr,
This is a complex discussion, you are welcome to join in if you have anything to add. This topic is not for atheists or those who don't believe in the God of the Bible.
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truthseeker
Jeffro,
So how do you suppose the Earth got its start? I don't believe in evolution.
You said: "But not only is the claim false on the face of it, but the argument is fallacious at its core. People are on Earth because it is the kind of environment suitable for sustaining people. It is not the way it is so that it can sustain people."
I think what you said is fallacious, you are telling me that Earth is not the way it is so it can sustain people. This makes absolutely no sense at all. The most plentiful thing in the visible creation is dust. Not just on the earth, but out in the heavens there are dust clouds in the universe. In the spirit world there is also dust, but its energy vibrates at a higher rate, and that is what separates the two realms. If you think about it, you will understand that all things are made of dust/energy. It is the basic energy that all of creation was formed from. What causes rain droplets to fall to the earth? Dust. But without water, life does not exist. Dust is energy vibrating at different speeds.
Dust is identified in the following scriptures:
Genesis 28:14 Your offspring will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out toward the west, the east, the north, and the south. All the peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring."
Expdus 8:17 "Aaron struck the earth with his staff and the dust became gnats of the third plague."
Exodus 9:9 "The dust of the earth also became festering boils on people and animals throughout the land of Egypt."
At 1 Corinthians 15:47-49, it says " The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. "
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truthseeker
Just a quick reply,
It seems that most arguments concerning the Trinity and Holy Spirit are due to different translations of the Bible, if only we had one GOOD translation that everyone accepted, half the arguments would probably disappear.
I will be around later to check for new posts.
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truthseeker
Everything in God's creation is set up in an orderly fashion, governed by laws.
Each side of the spectrum is governed by the laws of creation, both visible and invisible.
We know that some things which are visible are connected to the invisible? How so? Our Sun emits light that can be seen and light that is unseen. It is a perfect example of the visible and the invisible working in unity.
Our sun's precise distance from the earth reveals intelligent design. If the distance were off by any margin, it would not be beneficial for us living here.
With the spirit world there is much intelligent design and placement of laws that make the two realms work in harmony.
A concrete fact is if you boil water it will steam and evaporate into the air which is a law of the visible realm. It is something you can depend on.
Your very life depends on good health, avoiding accidents and crime by something or someone that could cause your death.
Though you've never experienced death, you know it's real, because most of us have lost friends and loved ones. It's a reality in this world on a daily basis.
Death is a law of the visible creation. As a law of the visible realm, death respects no one and eventually befalls every person of every generation. We take measures to avoid becoming a casualty of that law for as long as is permitted.
In the spirit realm, death is the turning off of energy. It is a reality that can happen on both sides of the spectrum. The same law that applies to those that pass over - rebirth to life - is the same law that gives rebirth on the other side. It is then that you come to understand that Yahweh is the Law-giver, the only source of life. We came into existence through raw energy and without God, no cohesion exists for us to live. Without God's spirit we have no life.