Hi AGuest,
Thank you for your reply which I read with interest.
I've included the portions you have commented on otherwise quoting the entire post would take up many pages!!!
He has two (2) "wives", dear one: the spirit realm... which is free (as are her children)... and the physical realm... which is enslaved (as are HER children). The first is named "Jerusalem Above" and is represented by "Sarah"... and the NEW Covenant, which is a covenant for FREE sons. The second is the earth and is represented by "Hagar"... and the OLD Covenant, which is a covenant for SLAVE sons. The verses at Galatians that I cited explain this.
OK, I see, you are using a metaphor because there is no human equivalent for what you are saying here, though you are using the word "wives" in terms of the relationship between God and the spirit/fleshly realm.
God's purpose in creating Adam was that he and his wife Eve were to live forever in paradise.
No, dear one, that was not the PURPOSE - that was the GIFT. The PURPOSE... was to hide the seed (of the Woman) from its enemies in the spirit realm... until such time as it (they) could be "fertilized" by God's holy spirit (semen) so as to be MORE of His sons by that Woman. Together with Christ, these make up the ONE "christ child" - he being the HEAD... they being the Body. Ephesians 6:12; Revelation 12:1, 2, 5, 17; 2 Corinthians 4:7; Colossians 1:18; 1 Corinthians 12:18
Yes, life is a gift so I stand to be corrected there. I think we differ on the purpose of human life. Scriptures indicate that the Word had joy in the creation of man.
To keep with His original creation of man through Adam, and not keep trying to find an alternate human line that would obey Him,
I am not quite sure what you mean here... or how/why you've come to this understanding, so I can't comment on it other than to say there was never going to be an "alternate" human line. There was always only going to be one... and only one... and because it held the seed, it HAD to be redeemed.
It has been said that God could have kept creating different lines of humans in an attempt to find a pair which upheld his laws, but as you said, there never would have been an alternate human line.
If they obeyed Him they would have life but we all know what happened
This is not quite accurate; it wasn't that if they obeyed God they would have life. It's that if they obeyed Him they would LIVE. They already had life, dear one... and it wasn't taken away because they "disobeyed." They not PUNISHED with death; death was merely a CONSEQUENCE of their actions.
My mistake, thank you for the correction.
and because their offspring were born into sin, it can be said they inherited Adam and Eve’s sin secondhand.
The offspring inherited the BODY Adham and Eve were given after there sin (a "long garment of skin")... which garment had sin and death in IT. Since the bodies they possessed by the time they procreated had sin and death IN them... this was passed on to their offspring.
I beg to differ here.
The reason God did not keep creating other humans as test subjects, is because his covenant was with Adam’s line of decent.
Ummmm... there was no covenant with Adham's line of descent, dear one. There was a covenant... with the Woman. A "marriage vow" of sorts. As to her... and, more importantly, her children. The first covenant He made with MAN... occurred many, many generations later, when He covenanted with Noah not to completely destroy man (and beast) by water ever again.
Ultimately, God could have destroyed the human race by wiping out Adam and Eve, but as I mentioned above, the Word, Christ Jesus, found joy in the creation of mankind, despite our imperfections. God would not let Satan thwart his will for the human race, but he would not go through hundreds of human pairs to make it happen.Adam's line is under a covenant with Yahweh though the Bible doesn't implicity state that. The Devils' demons materizlied before the flood, took on flesh and became human but it did not come under the covenant because it was not of the Adamic line of descent. This doomed the fallen angels, the fathers of the Nephilim. For the children of these fallen angels it was like being born out of wedlock and not knowing who their father was. They were an outcast in God's eyes, something he felt should never have happened in creation.
The fallen angels who materialized human flesh, they were also outcasts. God did not want them as humans, if he had, he would have given them that right, but in God's eyes they lowered themselves in rank to become less than what they were. If God wanted them dead, he would have not allowed them to decouple their spirit from flesh, thus they would have drowned at the Flood but her chose to keep them around so they could continue their testing of humans.
The human line comes from that single man and woman. To keep his will in line for what he originally wanted, God sought to do it through the first human couple. If he had killed them immediately, none of us would be here but that was not God's will.
He NEVER killed them, dear one. Like many others, you are relying on the LIE... that God warned that if Adham and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good (life) AND Bad (death), He would kill them. NEVER was that the plan, NEVER was that ever said or implied! He WARNED them that IF they ate... they would die... BECAUSE of eating from that particular tree. Like a loving parent who warns his children not to touch the stove because if they DID... they would be burned! NOT that if they did... he would KILL them for doing so! To attribute such a thing to the Most Holy One of Israel is to paint Him unrighteous. Why? Because the "punishment" would never fit the crime! So, that, dear one, can NEVER be!
I accept that, God did not kill them directly, but the implication was Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the fruit.
He "punished" them by (1) giving them a long garment of skin (which would enslave them as well as cause them to know pain... and death... but they would need in order to live in the world OUTSIDE the garden, the land of which He (2) cursed; then (3) putting them OUT of the garden (so that they couldn't get back to the Tree of LIFE... and eat and live forever!); and (4) blocking the way so that they could not re-enter.
Pretty harsh, yes, but not death - He didn't KILL them. He never even CONSIDERED killing them! Why? Because... THEY HELD THE SEED. If THEY died... the SEED would die! He couldn't kill them, then; rather, He had to make a provision to redeem that seed! And... He did!
He wanted mankind to survive, therefore, God did not want to keep testing different lines of humans.
He DID want earthling man to survive, so that the seed could survive... and be born. Had nothing to do with other lines of humans, though...
Agree on this
This is where undeserved kindness enters because it helps to bring those that love God and His Son back to Him.
I understand undeserved kindness (mercy) and how it brings those who love God and Christ back to Him. I do not understand, however, how this relates to what occurred in Eden with regard TO those sons. Those sons receive undeserved kindness/mercy as to their OWN sins... not Adham's or Eve's... Otherwise, what you're suggesting is that "we" must pay for THEIR sins. We DIE, yes, because of their sins... because of the BODY'S we inherited from and thus possess due to them. But that death is TEMPORARY (well, can be!). On the other hand, it is our OWN sins that we must be forgiven for... every one of us... not theirs... so as to live FOREVER. To have to pay for THEIR sins... would also be unrighteous. It would come under the "law" of the sins of the father coming upon the sons... which law was done away with long, long ago.
Agreed, but I want to clarify I was not suggesting that we're paying for their sins, they paid for theirs already. We must pay for ours and seek forgiveness.
We are not held RESPONSIBLE for their sins; we only reap the results. Since we're NOT responsible... a Saviour was provided to turn back those results. IF, however, we also have our OWN sins to answer for... and we all DO... then simply undoing what Adham/Eve DID... would not put us in line for life, dear one.
This is where I must disagree. Death is a state of inactivity whereby the life force of a spirit or individual ceases to exist.
The force of life cannot cease to exist, dear one... unless it is destroyed. Hence, the Lake of Fire, where even Death is hurled. In the meantime, the individual only sleeps... lies in a state of unconsciousness. Until he/she is resurrected... either to life... or to judgment. If that life force ceased to exist, what, then, can BE resurrected? There is nothing TO resurrect... for "it" ceases to exist, if what you suggest is true. If it ceases to exist... it is completely and utterly GONE. No... longer... in... existence. Yet, there will be a resurrection... with those in the grave/memorial tombs, etc., sea, Hades/Sheol... coming OUT... either to life or to judgment. How can this BE... if they no longer exist??
How did Christ go and PREACH to the spirits of those who had died... if HIS spirit... and theirs... had CEASED to EXIST???
OK. I agree that the force or spirit of an individual can only die if it is destroyed or turned off. We live in a mortal human container and are limited by our fleshly vessel. At death, the spirit, or chord, is severed and Christ transforms us to a spirit creature. Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Yes, remember your Creator now while you are young, before the silver cord of life snaps and the golden bowl is broken. Don't wait until the water jar is smashed at the spring and the pulley is broken at the well."
You mentioned if the life force ceases to exist, what can be resurrected. I submit that if there is a physical resurrection, those who are asleep will be resurrected into a new body, that looked like their former self, while God in effect downloads our consciousness into that body, but this is my speculation.
If God decrees that a spirit should no longer exist, that spirit is exited from God's mind where nothing can live.
You said that when we die we simply are asleep, but then you said "How did Christ go and PREACH to the spirits of those who had died." - so which is it, do we die and go to sleep or do some die and others live in a hereafter?
Death is not a person, though I see the symbolism in that God will "swallow up death forever."
Death absolutely is a person, a spirit being. He is the "one" who took the breath of all of Egypt's firstborn before the exodus. He is the one that is named "King" over the abyss... the pit... where SPIRITS that sin are confined. He... is also cast into the Lake of Fire... and so swallowed up forever. He is the one whose "sting" torments us... but only as a sting because his "bite" is not permanent. HE is the one who "takes" our loved ones... NOT God!... because HE is the one to whom our foregather, Adham, SOLD us.
Death can be a person if you want to look at it in the sense of someone who is commissioned to carry out an execution or in the case above, the angel of death destroyed Egypt's firstborn before the Exodus. So yes, I agree only on this principle.
But REPURCHASE us... Christ gave HIS life to Death. Death, however, was not able to hold HIM because he was given the "keys" so as to release himself FROM Death's grip.
Death is not a human, no. But he is definitely a personage, a spirit being... "the last enemy".
I don't know if you're using an allegory here.
It took many centuries for Adam and Eve to die. Since God did not immediately kill them, some of the angels took note of this.
It took many centuries for them to die for one reasons: the effect of eating from the Tree of Life took time to wear off. Remember, had they gotten back in and ATE... they would have lived... FOREVER. Ate... just ONCE. Once... and they would LIVE FOREVER. Does that not tell you the power and effect of THAT tree... from which they had been eating all along (because they could eat from EVERY tree in the garden EXCEPT the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad. Every tree... INCLUDING the Tree of Life... which they absolutely DID eat of... and regularly!
Agreed, but I will say that on the day they ate from the tree, they began to die, not just physically, but spiritually.
After a few hundred years when mankind had grown and Satan was still free, the angels thought God was not going to do anything to the first human pair of the Devil.
Ummmm... this is a serious WTBTS error, dear one! God DID something: He kicked them OUT and made them fend for themselves for the most part! They had it GOOD in the garden, but... no more. He didn't kill them, no... but that was never part of the plan anyway! He never said, ever even INTIMATED that He would kill them! That is MAN's manner of punishment for such a transgression, not God's, not at all!
After several hundred years had passed and mankind was multiplying quickly, Satan persuaded many angels to leave their assignments in heaven and come to Earth. The angels were in the dark regarding God's plan for creation, they did not fully understand they were going into Satan's trap. They thought God was slow regarding his promise to destroy sin so they left their station and went to Earth. It should be noted that they materialized as both men and women, it was whichever they had a preference for.
They did not know that 1,000 years is like one day to God, so they grew impatient,
Wait... spirit beings were around "aeons" before man. How would they have NOT known? They were there when the physical realm came into existence... which took quite some time. Time is nothing to THEM - it only has relativity for US. The impatient occurred NOT because nothing was done about Adham and Eve - there was a rebellion already brewing, hence the NEED to hide the seed. Belial (Satan) brough that rebellion into THIS realm - HE was the first to "rebel" when he lied to Eve. Why did he do this? Because he... and other spirit beings... RESENTED that the seed would inherit the kingdom! They believed it should go to THEM... not to tiny, puny, whiney, disrespectful, disloyal, and unfaithful MAN.
When God EXTENDED His love to man... these grew even more wrathful... and so set out to destroy that seed. Hence, Satan started with getting Adham to SELL that seed... in exchange for the "right" to KNOW death (bad)... and yet, live. Only two held the "keys" to that right: God... and Death. Since Adham was convinced that God was withholding it FROM him... he made a deal with Death. Except... both of them underestimated God: Adham, in that he died after all... and Death, when HE accepted a NEW "deal" - Christ... in exchange for all of Adham's progeny. Death took that "deal" believing himself to be the "winner"... because he would get the Son. No Son... no heir to the kingdom.
Satan successfully tempted some of the angels away from their rightful abode in heaven. They materialized on Earth in human form and married human women. They told Earth's inhabitants about the secrets of heaven as well as the secrets of the Heavenly Court. The angels that took human form were not of man's "one flesh". Eve was of the same flesh as Adam since she was created from Adam's rib, but the fallen angels materialized a counterfeit flesh. This can be found in the book of Enoch.
But, again, that Son was given "KEYS"... so that Death could not hold him in HIS (Death's) realm. Those keys were not literal metal sticks - they are faith, love, and justice. By means of THESE, Christ was able to release himself FROM Death... and death's realm. When he died... HIS spirit did not cease - no, he went and PREACHED to the spirits of others who had died... as well as spirit beings who are confined to the "pit", the lowest part of the world of the dead.
but in God's mind, Adam and Eve did die in the day God said they would.
Another WTBTS teaching. They BEGAN to die, yes, but didn't. And that "a 1,000 years is as one day" has absolutely NOTHING to do with Adham and Eve's life span... but Christ. Oy vey, dear one... you really should consider letting it ALL go... and rather than trying to put new wine into an OLD wineskin... starting over with an entirely NEW wineskin! Tear it DOWN... ALL THE WAY down... to the foundation... and let the "Cornerstone" build on it, again.
I take exception to letting it all go, I have simply told you what I believe. If you say you have spoken to the spirit directly I cannot argue with that.
More angels took note and they pursued their own selfish desires, wanting to live on earth as humans.
The Nephilim? No, no, dear one. Like Satan, they were SENT here. PLACED here... "in the earth." This was their TERRITORY (as Eden was Satan's - Ezekiel 28:13-17). They had a reason and PURPOSE to be here! That reason/purpose did NOT, however, include taking human women as wives. No more than it included Satan (who was supposed to look after and protect the garden and its occupants) talking Adham and Eve into eating in opposition to what God has instructed them!
Some of the fallen angels did want to live on Earth as humans. And like all humans, they were naturally curious when it came to the act of love, which is probably what Satan tempted them with. Also do not forget that they would have bonded with their hybrid children giving them even less reason to go back to their proper abode in heaven.
During the years before the Flood, numerous attempts were made to gain entry to the sacred garden and procure the fruit. It can be assumed that many died in the course of doing this, including the hybrid children. Because of the flaming sword, it was impossible for any of the fallen angels to get in the garden to retrieve fruit for their wives, although it should be noted the fruit would only have benefited thier wives and not their Nephilim children.
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I believe that when we die, we pass over to the spirit realm. Those marked by Christ because of their conduct "cross" over into the light, they become Holy Ghosts. They can then petition to be a guide to humans on Earth.
Can't be, dear one... because none precede others to the resurrection... excluding, of course, Enoch, Moses, and Elijah, three who were transferred (changed) so as not to SEE death (which is why Peter, James, and John saw the latter two WITH our Lord when he transfigured. All others must wait (Revelation 6:11) until the number is complete and Christ returns to gather them (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17).
Yes, when we die, I believe our spirit, our essence survives the death of our human vessel and passes over to the other side. You're confusing spirit with the fleshly vessel. You may have heard it said that when someone is drowning or is close to death, their life passes before their eyes, this may have a physical explanation, that their memories are being pulled out of their brain and into their new spiritual body after they have died a mortal death. Consider the many scriptures that allude to life after death. Why would Jesus tell his disciples not to be afraid of those who kill the body but rather fear him who can destroy both "soul" and body. Those who pass over are changed in a twinkling of an eye.
Those person who pass over and receive an education concerning Yahew's sovereign Law and choose to reject his Rulership, they become converts, because they are converted to Satan's way of thinking.
I know absolutely nothing of this... and not sure where YOU got it... so I will reserve comment, for now.
They want a world they left behind not a world of righteousness under God's rulership. The converts remain on this planet and spend their time bothering people, playing tricks on them, especially in the ghost hunter TV shows.
Okaaay...
Let me explain....converts are humans that have died and passed on to the spirit realm. They are considered separate from mankind because of redemption. This means that although Satan lost some of mankind, that is those who died fathful, he does gains others which are those who have passed over. The converts cannot enter the heavens because they have not atoned for minor sins, so they are denied crossing over and remain on Earth. There is a difference between passing over and crossing over.
Only after Christ ascended to the Father, could spirits enter the light if they were considered worthy. Those humans that refused couseling after learning of God's laws, are denied access. Over the milleniums, millions of those passing have rejected God's counsel because they prefer a world they left behind, so in effect they become converts because they are converted to Satan's way of thinking.
Since I do understand that spirits DO live... I cannot dispute this; however, I have not heard of such from my Lord... and have never ran into such a spirit, although one of my gifts is discerning/hearing spirits. I have to say, however, that this seems in direct contradiction of your assertion above that when one dies their life force... and thus, spirit... "ceases to exist." How can a spirit, young OR old... seek revenge, hang around and haunt a crime scene... or deny their life is over... if their life FORCE... has ceased to exist?? Or am I misunderstanding you (again)?
I didn't say their life force ceased to exist. Spirits are like people, some were people. If someone upsets them they will take it personally.
As for those who led vile lives, they are spiritual tagged. When they pass over, they are apprehended and taken to the Creator where their crimes are played out by witnesses.
Before the Judgment?? How can that BE?? Is there more than one "Judgment"... something other than the one that takes place AFTER the 1,000 years have ended, AFTER Gog and Magog, the Wild Beast, False Prophet, and Satan have been destroyed (Revelation 20:7-15; Daniel 7:9-14)??
Sentence is passed and they are taken to dark realms of imprisonment until the final judgement.
So, two judgments, then? An initial one before the Creator... and then a "final" one? Interesting. I have not heard this, sorry. Can you share with us, please, from where/whom you received this understanding? I would appreciate it as I have nothing to base a reference on and perhaps that would help ME see what you [see].
Whatever crime was committed, it is bound to have been observed by those on the other side who are well aware of what happened. When a crime has been committed, the angels are deputized to handle this and the criminal is tagged spiritually. After death, these individuals are not permitted to cross into the higher planes, they are apprehended and taken into custody. There crimes are shown in visual detail to the Creator and witness is given concerning their act. Sentence is passed and the offender is "locked away" in solitary confinement until the day of judgement.
I think that's enough, for now... and I, too, am enjoying our discussion." I hope you don't take my... ummmm... dissentions/disagreements... as an indication of a lack of love; nothing could be further from the truth. I have learned that one can possess a measure of holy spirit and yet not have an accurate knowledge as to God or Christ. Like Apollos. But "iron" sharpens "iron" does it not... and so perhaps we will both learn something "new." I intend to ask my Lord about all that you have stated here that I have not heard... and will certainly share what I hear, if am so privileged.
Again, peace to you... and thank you for taking the time with me!
Peace to you as well
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
