Englishman; "My point is simply how can you become integrated into a country if you wont speak the language?"
LDH has already responded much in the way I would have.
Nemesis; interesting debate, thank you! Please understand, I might get a little excieted, but I am not accusing you of being a racist (or Englishman), just discussing your viewpoints in comparison to mine.
Point one, I do blame the immigrants for not integrating, they have massive resources and help here.
Sorry Nemesis, I don't think all immigrants do have 'massive resources and help'. The West Indian immigrants of the '50's and '60's basically got off a boat. They were wanted, to drive buses et. al., but actually helping them integrate? Nah, didn't happen mate. Read up on the 'Windrush'. You seem to group people according to convenience; on one hand you say ;
The reason we invited Jamaicans, and West-Indians here after the war was not for “cheap labour” but because we had a labour shortage as we lost so many of our young men in WWII. I don’t put them in the same category as asylum seekers, or their descendants.
... yet you pair those decendant 'blacks' together with other groups like 'Muslim youths' when discussing crime. Oh, and, yes, there was a labour shortage... but there was no equal wage act yet, and businessmen being businessmen did often pay black people less. Likewise, Ugandan Pakistanis are a pretty financially dynamic group as a whole, given Idi stole everything they had, but were assylum seekers.
I think trying to group immigrant groups purely by origin or classification as 'assylum seeker', 'migrant worker', or 'ecomomic migrant' is difficult and possibly futile. This is why I keep on going on about integration, as you can very easily guage the level of integration with the host society by analysing statistics relating to the immigrants and comparing them to a 'norm' for the culture as a whole.
Many groups of immigrants received no real help to integrate, and they are the largest groups. Groups such as those resulting from the ethnic troubles in the former Yugoslavia did receive greater support, but they are smaller in number than the groups most frequently characterised as 'immigrants'. The help and support they received is not retrospectively available to older groups that, due to the absorbing culture's laxidasical (sp?) nature were allowed to become alienated. Your comments regarding secxual repression at the end of your post are very perceptive (and your comments regarding differentiation of the Asian community and different ANglo vs. American linguistic usage of Asian) are quite correct BUT ARE THE GOVERNMENT'S FAULT, as they allowed the situation to carry on; in Holland there is no comparable problem in the Morrocan commuinity, which is comparable, as it wasn't allowed to develop.
But what they do need to do is learn about the country they live in and have some respect for it—learn its basic history, culture, and get to know the native people.
Where do these lessons take place? In Holland, immigrants do get them, and I imagine that lessons of this nature will become common in England in the future. But is it now the fault of immigrants of the seventies and earlier, that they were just left to integrate without any effort being applied to helping them integrate? Is it the fault of the immigrant children that there is no equivalent of 'citizenship' classes, like they have in, say, the US, to allow them to be integrated or at least knowledgable of their host culture? They have them in every school in the US.
Of course, the fate as regards integration does depend greatly on the educational level of the inital immigrants; some immigrants can manage the process without government help. But for a Westerner to assume it's an easy process, 'cause it would be for them, is silly, as not all immigrants have the same abilities due to their background. Add in difference generated by religion and how this is amplified in uneducated groups, and wey-hey, of course, it's the religiously devout uneducated immigrant with social taboos that would make Victorians feel restricted who is at fault! You recognise the problem, but we seem to find different causes for the problem!
Don’t expect the natives to show an interest in their culture and then hypocritically reject all things native as worthless, or expect the natives to pay for your festival and then complain when a native wants their festival in their native country, and call them racist, or nationalistic!
I'm sorry, I don't understand this paragraph; please restate.
As for “equal” depends what you mean. As a human, yes. As deserving all the inheritance of the English have worked for over the past 1,600 years,
Oh, PLEASE! English and 1,600 years? The English haven't even existed for 1,600 years. We are a bunch of &ucking mongerels. Picts, Celts, Angles, Jutelanders, Saxons, Danes, Jews, Norwegians, Normans (French speaking Vikings)... our Queen has more German blood in her than English blood! We borrowed a King of the Dutch! Please don't give me a lecture about nationhood unless you realise that one of the distinguishing characteristics of English nationhood is the way it is made up of succesive waves of invaders. It took hundreds of years for some of those cultural groups to integrate! Now people have to integrate after a half hour chat about the Royal Family and a few weeks of English lessons at the local Poly! Even our language is a mongrel; sledgehammer is a Norse word and a Saxon word that means the same thing put together! Bungalow, bangalore, curry, jodphurs, polo, juggernaught, bandoblast; all words from the Indian sub-continent. Yacht and bouy are Dutch words; the rest of our language is the bastard child of a marriage between German and French, with seasoning of Latin and Greek. We are a nation of bastards, and we should be proud of it, not pretend it's a closed club now.
No. Would the new canteen worker be due the same pay as the 50 years faithful managing director who built the company from scratch with blood, sweat, and hard work? No! Ethnic monitory groups have massive help far more than white natives ever get; they have absolutely no excuse at all for not making the effort to use these resources.
Again, please provide PROOF of the alleged disparity you are, again, claiming; i believe that I and others have already addressed the fact it's unrealistic to use phrases like "not making the effort to use these resources" when talking about people at a large educational and cultural remove.
With regards to me saying third generations onward do integrate more you replied;
I disagree Abaddon, the biggest problems we have with certain groups are not the first generation, but the last. West-Indian immigrants we invited over in the 50s to offer them employment as we lost so many young men in the war are not the problem.
They're (the 1st generation) are not properly integrated man, they're just QUIET about their discontent.
It’s their children, and grandchildren who are causing the massive upsurge in crime in the UK, especially in London.
Why?
*in an Ali-G voice*
Is you saying black peoples robs more?
*joke*
And why do you think that is? Do you seriously believe that they rob out of choice (real choice) in any greater a quantity than white kids? Well, you can, but I don't! Having known young black criminals, I know that if they can 'better' themselves, they do. STOP LOOKING AT THEIR COLOUR. Look at statistics, look at educational levels of them and their parents. Look at average levels of income. Look at the wealth of the families. Look at employment.
You'll see people turn to crime as a result of these factors, regardless of colour.
It's not their COLOUR or their CULTURE causing the problem, it's deprevation which is due to lack of integration, which in the example of Afro-Carribians, is the UK's fault. Go back to my example of how Germany is at least more honest with regards to migrant workers.
Oh, and remember, that in the past thirty years repatriation has gone from almost a main political party policy (if the public reaction to Enoch Powells infamous 'rivers of blood' speech had been favourable, it would have been policy), to that of a party which still achieves success. Think how &ucking integrated you'd feel if people voted in people who wanted you GONE.
Oh, and look at the comparative level of integration of Greek and Italian (or other white European immigrants) people into British culture after a few generations, or how integrated most Jewish families are into British culture. It take YEARS for the process to complete, thus me saying '3rd gen on'.
Aged first generation Muslim Pakistanis are not the cause of problems either (except the financial cost),
Do you close your eyes every time you are in a cornershop? Or a hospital? PLEASE start giving proof that people such as those you keep on alleging are actually more of a burden than white people on average.
it’s their future generations who many turn into white hating racists (Bradford riots being a perfect example).
Please listen to a member of the British National Party for five minutes before you make 'white hating racists' sound like such a threat to society. Did they jump out of bed and say "Goodness gracious me Prakash, I am feeling like rioting today, as I am being of the opinion that white people are bad". Have you, Nemesis, ever been racially abused?
Oh, and Jamil Mayet, Teher Teyeb and Jagdeshua Sucool (all of whom are second gen, and a Consultant, a Pharamasist and a Dentist respectively, and all of whom I went to school with) spoil your stereotype, as do many others. Clue...'Bradford'... 'deprevation'...
... and you obviously didn't know that the riots were triggered by white youths (or at least in the version I read they were).
The opposite of integration is happening, the last generation are the cause of so many problems and crime, not the first generation.
No. No. No. No. Just so you are clear on what I think...
It is GOVERNMENT that is the cause of the problem... the rioting has everything to do with deprevation and racism, but are you really gonna convince me if the rioters had an equal crack of the whip they'd be rioting? That's like saying they're different due to their race!
As for “entitled to their cultural identity” of course they are! AND SO AM I! and that’s the problem, just the hint of mentioning ‘English’ is almost a swear word, left wing bigots with endless rhetoric expect the natives to absorb and celebrate all things ‘ethnic’ and if we reverse that, and ask immigrants and their descendants to do the same we get called racist!
Ah, so, the fact that some people on the other side of the debate are not reasonable means that the other side of the arguement has no merits? I argue (and I've not seen any evidence to the contrary) that lack of integration is chiefly the problem of the host culture, and that given the opportunity, immigrants will integrate willingly, whilst retaining their cultural uniqueness (!), if helped to integrate by the host culture,m rather than being alienated by them.
They don’t want to “contaminate” their culture with anything English, or British, but we are suppose to trash our rich heritage and take on theirs in a “multicultural Britain”.
You may not LIKE it, but cultures change. British culture is a result of invasion and absorbtion. This is what history tells us. Why should it stop now? And statements like "we are suppose to trash our rich heritage and take on theirs in a “multicultural Britain”" sound like leaders in the Daily Mail... it's hyperbole, no one is expecting you to trash your culture, just not get bent out of shape if someone on the bus smells different due to the fact they have a spicey diet, or that they wear a turban all the time due to their religion, or asks if they can work Christmas and have Devali off?
I despise this racially biased hypocrisy! I have many friends, and work colleagues from many cultures, and I take and interest in their culture, but take great offence when I’m told by some white hating left wing black, or Pakistani group etc., that I’m not allowed to celebrate my English heritage, history, and culture because that might offend some ‘ethnic’ minority!
IT'S INTEGRATION. Here in Holland, jokes which characterise people in a humourous fashion according to their race or culture, are quite acceptable. Dutch people OF ALL RACES simply don't have the sensitive spots people in the UK or USA have, as they feel integrated. They don't assume 'ah, racism', as there is a precharge of knowledge, only available when someone is integrated, that it's observational humour, not a racial slur. For similar reasons, bunches of Dutch nutters celebrating Carnival, or Queens Day, or Sinter Clas, do not provoke anxitity amongst immigrants as they are integrated.
It ain't perfect; there are Dutch racists, and there are levels of disaffection amongst certain immigrant groups (THE DEPRIVED ONES, Doh!). But do you think that in England it would be acceptable for white men to 'black up' and play the part of Black Peter, Sinter Clas' assitant, handing out presents to children?
The only reason that is possible is the Dutch have done well at integrating immigrants; it's not because the immigrants to Holland are easier going than those to England.
As for the carnival, there is no evidence that they generate anywhere near £4,000,000 over two days. Not to mention the sting of hundreds of thousands of pounds that Kensington and Chelsea’s council tax payers have to fork our for the cleanup bill. By the way, that £4,000,000 was just for the policing! Why? Because of a predictable handful of blacks youth causing robberies, stabbings, and murders.
So, no white youths commit crime during the Carnival? And it's okay for x amount to be poured into a funeral of a member of the Royal Family, but not for an event that gives enjoyment to over 200,000 people. If we say the total cost of the Carnival is £8,000,000, and the attendance is 200,000, then we need a revenue of £40 per person. The Carnival is spred over the August Bank Holiday, and as it's EASY to spend £40 on a day out with drink and food in London anyway, I think the Carnival is good value for money; better value than burying the Queen Mum, as no one danced at her funeral, and dancing is a good thing.
As regards your comments regarding fiscal drain, integrated cultures stop being a drain, and I'm sure you've gathered who has the final responsibility regarding integration, or at least what my opinion is!
I have to take exception to your presentation of the stats on racially motivated crime. You make one big, erroneous assumption; that immigrants report ALL racial attacks on them... I'm pretty sure most white people report racial attacks when they happen, as they are assured of a fair response. However, immigrants cannot make that assumption, as cases like the Stephan Lawrence case prove. Yet again, lack of integration is the governments fault, as they have alowed complacent racism to exist in the police force for far too long. Is it the immigrants fault that the police are untrustworthy, and thus make them feel unintegrated?
With the level of reporitn so completely undermined, your attempt to show by statictics that whites are besiged by nasty immigrant racists fails to convince, and spoils many good points made about a subject you obviously have some knowledge of, and I would like to see proof of this;
Muggings, robberies, and murders are also on a massively disproportionately level commited by blacks above what they are for whites regardless of the socio-economic level.
I'd also like to see proof regarding housing associations that exclude white people, as my understanding of the law is that this would be illegal.
Thanks again for an enjoyable debate
