Posts by TTATTelder

18

Is the number of JWs leaving increasing?

by dozy in

i don't mean jws getting stumbled or bored or getting dfd for immorality- there always have been a certain number of those all the time.. i've been out for a few years now but am curious to know from "still ins" if there is any evidence of increasing numbers of people leaving for classic "apostate" reasons - ie either fading or getting dfd because they have done research & realise that this isn't "the truth".. when i was a jw occasionally i would hear of someone suddenly stopping going to meetings & hearing through the grapevine & jw gossip mill that the person no longer believed it was the truth or had expressed doubts in the "slave" etc.

but it didn't happen very often ( though it was increasing somewhat in the years before i left).. one would imagine with the internet & increased information available to all that this would be happening more often.

any evidence of this , anecdotally?

TTATTelder

QMI,

Welcome to the forum! Sorry to hear about your experience. Look forward to hearing more details.

-TE

8

WT black and white thinking is laughable

by Batman89 in

so im reading the oct awake article on jw.org: how do you mesure success.

the article gives you two differnt scenarios for two differnt people and you can "test yourself" to see which type of success means more to you.

alex.

TTATTelder

It is a corollary of the mental health industry that a certain flexibility of thinking is indicative of mental health. Correspondingly, black and white thinking is indicative of mental illness.

In this case, we have a cult induced mental illness. - Oubliette

Strong point. No wonder we all need therapy!

-TE

18

Is the number of JWs leaving increasing?

by dozy in

i don't mean jws getting stumbled or bored or getting dfd for immorality- there always have been a certain number of those all the time.. i've been out for a few years now but am curious to know from "still ins" if there is any evidence of increasing numbers of people leaving for classic "apostate" reasons - ie either fading or getting dfd because they have done research & realise that this isn't "the truth".. when i was a jw occasionally i would hear of someone suddenly stopping going to meetings & hearing through the grapevine & jw gossip mill that the person no longer believed it was the truth or had expressed doubts in the "slave" etc.

but it didn't happen very often ( though it was increasing somewhat in the years before i left).. one would imagine with the internet & increased information available to all that this would be happening more often.

any evidence of this , anecdotally?

TTATTelder

I think their desperation in artificially boosting numbers will only last so long and actually guarantee a future decline.

It's sort of like the big 0% financing craze in car sales that happened in the U.S. around 2001-2003 or so. There was a huge influx of buyers and then suddenly sales fell off a cliff. They sucked in all the buyers for a couple of years and then growth screached to a halt.

I see that happening to WT when they run out of 8-12 year olds. They bumped down the acceptable baptism age to artificially boost numbers, but this boost will only be temporary. It may not even work temporarily (if my international convention baptism numbers are any indication).

I can't remember the last time a local congregation split, and that used to be something that happened once every 3 years or so. -OEJ

Totally agree. I can't remember the last time I saw a congregation split. I actually just heard of two Spanish cong's combining.

What's funny also is this - we have a couple in our hall that go down to Mexico to serve the "English Need". In all the years of the glowing stats of bible studies and such that they report, that cong in Mexico has still not split.

All in all, the WT is in trouble - they know it - and they are ready to spin the inevitable decline as a sign of "sifting", "refining", etc. Look forward to Watchtower articles on how "narrow and cramped" the road to life is and how it is getting even more so as this system reaches its end. Satan is intensifying his efforts blah blah.

Heck they will probably pull the "Gideon and his 300 Men" story out of the drawer and turn it into a prophecy for our day. LOL

-TE

55

for those still "in" what's the mood

by lastchance in

in my area the general sense is bleak.

many are in survival mode.

even at the convention the appearance of the majority was unhappy and tired.

TTATTelder

The mood in my hall is mainly tired but hanging on. There are a few zealots that don't really have a life outside their zealotry, but most are moving to the middle if not past the middle to a more liberal view of life as a JW.

I spoke to a young couple a few months ago that were seriously debating about having a child with the "end" so close. I told them to live their life. Then I added that the WT told my parents in 1968 to not start a career in this system because the end would come too soon to ever finish it. My parents are almost 70 now. They looked at me dumbfounded.

Well she is now pregnant.

I am still spreading my "you just have to take all this with a grain of salt" gospel when I talk to frustrated dubs. It seems to work well. Each individual will read between the lines as much as they're ready for. I can spin out of it easily if confronted.

People are really worn out from all the "special activity". Things become less special when it feels like every other week there's a new campaign or whatever. This JW.org campaign for August is falling a bit flat. People aren't rushing to sign auxillary slips.

I look forward to seeing how the dubs look back on this 2014 year. I don't think it will be the pivotal year in people's minds like the WT is trying to make it. The desperation of the org seeps through regardless of how much they try to spin it. The lack of real substance is hard to deny as well.

-TE

19

How do you measure a Jehovahs Witness?

by Londo111 in

im just thinking outloud and, of course, you are welcome to think aloud with me.. (1) there are the metrics used in the yearbook totals.

the average publisher count measures only those who reported time.

likely, most of those who attend the memorial are those inactive or somehow associated in some way, shape, or form.. (2) there is meeting attendance.

TTATTelder

"And then Jehovah commanded his people to be be hyper-controlling, paranoid, secret-keepers.

And God saw that it was good."

-TE

22

JW.ORG Business Cards?

by toweragent in

did anybody else get an announcement at their meeting about the branch approved jw.org business cards?.

apparantly, they're real slick and fit into your wallet (making it easier to informal witness).

the logic was, some people don't want to be handed a big tract and would prefer something smaller.. so strange considering how little there is to those tracts!

TTATTelder

We got the letter too.

My take: Desperation, money-saving ploy, and a way to let people count even easier field service time.

You could literally leave one of these cards every 15 min somewhere and count your time all day.

It will be advertisement for the website of course which they think is their saving grace. lol

-TE

68

A "follow up" meeting?!?!

by DATA-DOG in

well, now they want a follow up visit!

when you tell the elders that you have doubts and they say " its okay, we have had our doubts.

having doubts is not apostasy.

TTATTelder

OEJ,

If the elders are rabid, busy-body, pot-stirrers - there may be nothing that really works to get them off his back.

But this org has the elders jumping through hoops left and right lately. There's another freakin' campaign in August.

I think giving them what they want is the easiest way to slip through the cracks as the elders move into Campaign August, a new service year in September, an upcoming annual meeting, anniversary of the "kingdom", and even more importantly this "Zone Visit" thing I think is in November.

Quit being a squeaky wheel and you get quickly forgotten in all this mayhem.

It is my understanding that DD is still attending a few meetings and such with the Fam doing his fade. He could easily just slip back into the "weak attender" category as opposed to "potential apostate".

I'm also working on the assumption, which I think is correct, that the reason they are visiting him is because of these "doubts" they have heard about - not really because he has missed a few meetings.

-TE

68

A "follow up" meeting?!?!

by DATA-DOG in

well, now they want a follow up visit!

when you tell the elders that you have doubts and they say " its okay, we have had our doubts.

having doubts is not apostasy.

TTATTelder

One more thing:

The whole "avoid the meeting thing" could work, but IMO could more likely backfire in that it keeps you in suspicion and thus on the radar. If you are on the radar you get brought up at quarterly meetings and CO visits. I like the fake "thanks for saving me" meeting to get them off your back myself.

-TE

68

A "follow up" meeting?!?!

by DATA-DOG in

well, now they want a follow up visit!

when you tell the elders that you have doubts and they say " its okay, we have had our doubts.

having doubts is not apostasy.

TTATTelder

Just throwing my 2 cents here:

I'm still serving as an elder as many of you have in the past and I can tell you that they "investigated" you the first time. Then they reported back to the body.

Here's the thing:

Regardless of how the "cool" brother personally feels, they are obligated to act according to the consensus of the body. If this other brother (the not cool one) spewed some personal feelings or negativity about you or the bad impression he got - then this next visit could be to push the issue harder.

If it's 3 brothers its already a committee. You have a right to ask if this has turned into something judicial.

It prob hasn't yet, but still could. Many times this next visit is a 2nd-investigation/give-counsel meeting. In other words, they most likely are being sent to give you stern counsel, warnings, share scriptures, pray, yada yada in order to "readjust" you. But they also simultaneously will be asking a few more probing questions to see if they can fish out anything that you may have held back in the first meeting. If there's more stuff uncovered then they will report back again and it could escalate.

Honestly I have to say, as much as we all on here like to be forthright and tell it like it is, you do not owe these men the truth. A fade is a deception by definition.

I personally reserve the right to bald face lie to any elders that ask me anything ever. In other words answer the questions however you must to make them go away. You are on the radar now. That's not good. But if they feel like they "saved" you then they will hopefully go back to the body and pat each other on the back and move along. Then of course you can get back to the evil plan LOL.

-TE

14

Elders Can't Simply Go Back to Being Ministerial Servants...

by TTATTelder in

as a currently serving "awake" elder caught in the web of family, spouse, employer, etc.

etc..... i have often wondered why an elder cannot simply drop back to ministerial servant if he so desired (because of stress, circumstances, health).. on paper a currently serving elder in good standing more than qualifies to be a ms. that is obviously the case by their own hierarchy structure and definitions of qualification.. but...under their current arrangement....theoretically a man could give a district convention talk one week to 10,000 people, step down as an elder the following day due to stress, and not "qualify" to give a 5 min part on the next week's service meeting in front of 50 people.

doesn't make a lot of sense.. so my question is this.....why do you think the wt forces a man to drop all the way "down" to publisher if he no longer wants to serve as an elder?.

TTATTelder

I agree with many of the comments above.

I think it is definitely designed to entrap elders by not allowing them to slip down a rung. They are essentially punished for walking away and branded as weak, without-proper-zeal, etc. It is an all or nothing proposition. How can they defend this as "Christian"?

The announcement is the same as well. If a brother is removed for screwing a prostitute or simply steps aside because of stress, the anouncement is "Brother SO and SO is no longer serving as an elder" which, by the way, always sounds like a bad thing when read from the platform.

Check this out from the "Secret" Elder Book:

A brother resigns for personal reasons.

Two elders should first discuss the matter with him.
Why does he wish to resign? Is he Scripturally
disqualified? If his personal circumstances hin-
der him from doing what he would like, can the
elders be of any assistance and encouragement?
Until his circumstances change, perhaps they
can lighten his load for a period of time while
he continues to serve. If, after this discussion,
he still feels he wants to resign, then the Con-
gregation Service Committee should write the
branch office and give sufficient information so
that the reasons for resignation are clear. Full de-
tails should be provided as to why he chose to
relinquish his privilege of service.

(italics mine)

They see this man as dangerous. It's like a "you are either for us or against us" kind of thing.

Anyway, I think the topic is an interesting one. It is one of those things right under the noses of the JW's and never gets acknowledged.

It is a less-controversial subject that could potentially be brought up in an effort to get someone thinking.

-TE