Posts by accuracy

12

Bible Fraud

by radar in

jw
friends

here is an extract from the book: the bible fraud, by tony bushby.. some may find this a revelation!.

just who were the parents of jesus christ?

in the opening sentence of a new testament parable, jesus stated:.

accuracy

I hope the rest of that stuff is more accurate than what was said about the story of Jesus' birth in the Koran. There is no such story. Rather, the Koran agrees that Jesus had a Virgin Birth:

"Behold! the angels said: 'O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God.'"

"She said: 'O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?' He said: 'Even so: God createth what He willeth; when He hath declared a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!'" (Koran, 3:45, 47, A. Yusuf Ali translation)

The Talmud does contain the ben Pantera story, but everything the Talmud says about Jesus is derogatory. The rabbinic Judaism of the time was antagonistic to Christianity.

Besides, if we cannot accept the stories of Jesus' disciples which were written in the first century, why should we accept legends that were enshrined in the Talmud in the fourth century?

8

False teachings of a JW?

by ruchristians in

i have verses from the nwt that contradict the jw teachings.

does anyone want to try to explain this to me?

how bout this.... col 1:16, in talking about jesus, says that"... all [other] things have been created through him and for him".

accuracy

You cannot correctly understand Col 1:16 by isolating it to itself. You have to read it in context with the surrounding verses.

Also, you have to understand that the verb ektistai, in the Greek perfect tense, is not here referring to a creative act in the far-distant past, but one that continues and that includes the work of Jesus as the Messiah.

Col 1:16 is not referring to just the beginning of creation, nor to the status of the Logos at that time.

9

For Mystics and other Rare Birds

by Satanus in

jw
friends

http://www.paxprofundis.com/parush/tradition.htm .

atheists will think this is fluff.. most christians will judge it satanic.. some spiritual christians, pagans, wiccans, eastern meditaters and those w a spiritual interest might find something of worth in this essay.

enjoy.

accuracy

Frater Francois,

Salutem punctus trianguli!

17

Revelation Teaches Jesus is God

by JosephAlward in

i understand that jehovah's witnesses teach that jesus is not god, but the author of revelation seems to teach otherwise:.

yahweh speaking: "i am the alpha and the omega," says the lord god" (revelation 1:8).

more yahweh: "i am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

accuracy

I would have to agree with Kent that endless discussion of bits and pieces of the book of Revelation is pointless. So, I will make these few observations of inaccuracies in funkyderek's post, and take my leave of this thread.

1) It is not true that "there is no mention of Jehovah in this chapter." Who is the "Lord God" (KJV) mentioned in verses 5 and 6?

2) The "one coming quickly" is mentioned in verse 12, not verse 13. As there are several speakers in this chapter, one cannot say categorically that the same person speaks in verse 13.

3) Jesus' angel is not the only one speaking. Verse 6 identifies another angel: "And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel..."

And Yerusalyim, I am not denying the divinity of Jesus. The term "theos" is clearly applied to Jesus in the NT and in the OT. However, Scripture also proclaims that this does not make Jesus the Almighty God. Jesus is a theos who has a theos as head over him, unlike the Eternal God. And the Bible also applies the term "theos" to angels, Satan, and even the judges of Israel.

But I will not go round and round on this carousel.

17

Revelation Teaches Jesus is God

by JosephAlward in

i understand that jehovah's witnesses teach that jesus is not god, but the author of revelation seems to teach otherwise:.

yahweh speaking: "i am the alpha and the omega," says the lord god" (revelation 1:8).

more yahweh: "i am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

accuracy

I can't take seriously a thread on Jesus theology by Joe, since he has spent much time attempting to "prove" that Jesus is only a myth, and didn't really exist.

But larsguy made excellent points. Also, he does not commit the inconsistency of merely using "Jesus" with "Yahweh." Consistency requires using Yeshua with Yahweh. If you're going to be Hebrew about it, be Hebrew.

funkyderek, Jesus identifies himself as the speaker at Revelation 22:16. But no speaker is identified at 22:13. The last speaker identified before that is "the angel" (verse 8). Theological presupposition might say that it is Jesus who speaks at 22:13, but the Greek text does not. In the King James Version, Revelation 22:13 is written in red, but again, this is theological presupposition, since the Greek text makes no such distinction. Even so, "Alpha and Omega," the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet, mean the same as "the first and the last," and as larsguy's post points out, this in itself is not limited, as a reference, to Jesus.

In Revelation, Jesus is called "the beginning of the creation of God" (3:14 KJV, NASB, etc.) That is consistent with the rest of the New Testament.

17

Revelation Teaches Jesus is God

by JosephAlward in

i understand that jehovah's witnesses teach that jesus is not god, but the author of revelation seems to teach otherwise:.

yahweh speaking: "i am the alpha and the omega," says the lord god" (revelation 1:8).

more yahweh: "i am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

accuracy

But note that Yahweh didn't say "I was dead but am now alive."

One can be "first and last" in more ways than one.

More than one person can be "first and last," depending on the situation.

Nothing in the book of Revelation says that Jesus is God. Rather, in Revelation, Jesus is spoken of as having a God.

Jesus is not even portrayed as the originator of the Revelation; it was something "which God gave unto him."

Is this supposed to be a serious thread, or a joke?

24

Dead Sea Scrolls published Jesus not There

by Satanus in

the prep and publishing of the dead sea scrolls is finally finishing.

they date from 250 bc to 70 ce.

out of a total of 52 volumes, jesus christ is not mentioned even once.. _________.

accuracy

Well, Joe, I wasn't going to make any more comments on this until you made your snide ad-hominem post. But since you did, this is just for the record: I am secure in my faith, so things will not get worse for me. Truth is, I have read better anti-Jesus stuff than you put out, and that didn't faze me, either. We operate on two different wave lengths. And I have no more use for yours than you have for mine. But I do insist on mine for me, just as you insist on yours for you.

As I said, to each his own, and my own is and will remain the way of faith.

24

Dead Sea Scrolls published Jesus not There

by Satanus in

the prep and publishing of the dead sea scrolls is finally finishing.

they date from 250 bc to 70 ce.

out of a total of 52 volumes, jesus christ is not mentioned even once.. _________.

accuracy

If Jesus didn't exist, that would have been an excellent argument to make for those who wished to snuff Christianity out from the beginning. Strange that the Pharisees and their religious descendants, the rabbis of the Mishnah and Talmud, never made that argument, although they had plenty of other things to argue about with the growing Christian movement. The rabbis disputed that Jesus was the Messiah, and they disputed that he was resurrected, but they did not dispute his existence. What an opportunity they missed, if this were true!

I would recommend the book _Jesus Within Judaism: New Light from Exciting Archaeological Discoveries_ by Professor James H. Charlesworth
(Doubleday, 1988) It contains a particularly interesting discussion of the "Testimonium Flavianum," the Josephus statement about Jesus, including an Arabic version of that statement wherein "blatantly Christian passages in the Greek are missing." Comparing the Greek and Arabic versions, it is very likely that Josephus did mention Jesus: The Arabic version says: "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship." (page 95)

Thus, it cannot be stated categorically that Josephus did not mention Jesus. But more importantly, the rabbis of the Mishnah and Talmud did do so, and they never once used the argument that the antagonistic sect of Christianity was based upon a lie because there was no Jesus.

Further, using the same logic, we could argue that Josephus did not exist, since he is not mentioned in the New Testament, whereas non-Christian people, including even poets, are mentioned and quoted.

I will have no more to say on this, since argument leads nowhere. People will believe what they want to believe, and I certainly believe in Jesus. There are those who deny the existence of Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon and everyone else they want to deny. But the existence of the Jewish people gives life to the myth, if it is such. Likewise, for me, regardless of those who deny the existence of Christ (and probably Peter and Paul, too), the existence of the Christian congregation gives life to the myth, if it is such.

To each his own.

12

honest question for unbiased bible scholars

by Bridgette in

jw
friends

one of my interests is the study of people's belief systems (more from an anthropological standpoint).

i've just begun to delve into judaism.

everything i've relied upon for their history, etc.

accuracy

According to the Gospel record, Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law (and thus Judaism), not to destroy it, and to preach to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus lived and died, as to his humanity, a Jew. His first disciples were Jews. Interestingly, according to the book of Acts, James, the brother of Jesus, said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many tens of thousands of believers there are among the Judeans [i.e., Jews], and they are all zealots for the Torah." (Acts 21:20, "Jewish New Testament," by David H. Stern, 1989) The Jewish Christians of that time still kept the Law; it was Gentile converts to Christianity who were released from that obligation by the first Christian governing body in Jerusalem. However, as Paul said, it was no longer the Law that Christians looked to *for salvation*, but to Jesus.

As for Yeshua (Jesus) ben Pantera, look in the Talmud. The Jews of the first four centuries, C.E., did not doubt the existence of Jesus, and Jesus is mentioned in the Talmud, even if derogatorily as respects his birth.

24

Dead Sea Scrolls published Jesus not There

by Satanus in

the prep and publishing of the dead sea scrolls is finally finishing.

they date from 250 bc to 70 ce.

out of a total of 52 volumes, jesus christ is not mentioned even once.. _________.

accuracy

What other things grabbed the attention of Josephus? For one thing, there was revolution and later a war going on. For another, Josephus was busy trying out the philosophies of the Essenes and the Pharisees.

But by what logic do we believe that Josephus existed, and the Essenes existed, but that the man who has influenced life, civilization, religion, and philosophy more than they all, never existed? If Jesus never existed we must salute the anonymous genius who created his lofty teachings and his dedicated life.

It is also unthinkable that the people of his time would trouble themselves to create someone who, in the Jewish and Roman world back then, would only cause trouble for them. Loyal Jews who believed in Jesus risked expulsion from the synagogue, and in fact, were expelled. Faithful Gentiles who believed in Jesus risked dishonor and death in the Arena, and in fact, were dishonored and put to death. Primitive Christianity was not a glamorous religion of the rich and famous. It was to great extent a religion of the poor -- In fact, "The Poor" was an early Christian title -- and the outcast. It called for a life of dedication and sacrifice. What was the altruistic and compelling spirit behind primitive Christianity if Jesus the Exemplar never existed?

So then as today, the world takes note of what it wants to. So then as today, the real Jesus makes folk uncomfortable. So then as today, people would rather ignore him.

"Precisely because Jews ask for signs and Greeks try to find wisdom, we go on proclaiming a Messiah executed on a stake as a criminal! To Jews this is an obstcle, and to Greeks it is nonsense; but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, this same Messiah is God's power and God's wisdom! For God's 'nonsense' is wiser than humanity's 'wisdom.'" -- 1 Corinthians 1:22-25 (David H. Stern, "Jewish New Testament")