Outlaw, there's usually two primary positions that most occupy. That is pretty reasonable as most people fall on either side and a good volume for the edge. We have to remember that it takes two to argue and I've seem countless scrimmages of this not just on here, but everywhere. We do not have the supernatural ability to look into someone and see which of these skeptics they are. We must use discernment by looking at what they say and how they say it. If someone starts off with an angry ad hominem attack and inherently refuses everything some person say as the babbling of idiots and morons, then that person has revealed themselves.
looter
JoinedPosts by looter
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
In reply to redvip2000, It's never been easy for me to convey what I think but that was my fault for not writing that sentence right. What I was said was how cofty said all Christians believe in Jesus and I disagreed with him. As for the bible, your position on this is respected but Christians see value in it and there really isn't anything wrong with that unless they are trying to murder folks and or doing terrible acts.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
Yes. Every Christian believes that their God is the image of righteousness. But what I'm saying is that everyone has their own image of morality even if it rejects the belief in God. Not everyone is completely rational because we're not robots or machines. Just like we believe in logical thinking, there is a certain conception that we submit ourselves to since we are only human beings. Absolute and objective morality are very similar because in both, each party assesses candor to what they believe to be true based on their own personal perspective. It's just that one appoints a supreme deity and the other doesn't.
You say that you aren't trying to find any moral standard yet you say, "That means that good and bad are assessed against the consequences for the well-being of conscious creatures. So there are real moral truths.", which means that you feel you have found an ideal moral truth in your eyes. There is hardly a difference in that and absolute morality.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
That's true cofty in a lot of cases. But anyone can be immoral and that was the viewpoint I had in that that each side is equal and generally wants to do the right thing. Not every Christian believes "essential good out there somewhere against which everything must be measured" as there are some that believers that don't put that in their devotion to all that is goodness. And I wouldn't say it's childish to believe that so much as it's intuitive to believe or wonder that something else is out there because everyone has their own view as you do yours.
You mentioned that Christians have filled in on you about what they felt was rightful decimation. Obviously, it's not. But I think the mistake people make is placing all Christians in that category when all atheists aren't the same even though they may believe in similar principles. To be honest, absolute morality can be tied in with objective morality but like you said they are different. But to say that all Christians possess objective morality such as those you mentioned isn't true.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
Now the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times. Now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words. Our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves. These rules of conduct are external and can be described and discussed in a lot of ways. It seems that the vast outlet one by one possess there own idea from an endless multitude of opinions. Now these are the rules by which we choose how to behave and by which we sometimes judge others. Since this is basically the core of what everyone is trying to edify, everybody can be said to be moral in there own way unless they hold a motive of abolishment or taboo. Atheists in particular invariably adhere to some standard of conduct as it is just what human beings do.
But it is precisely this that sets atheists apart. What truly makes them look immoral in the eyes of believers of God. The nature of a non believers life is not rightly described as the adherence to an external set of norms and standards even if those norms and standards are described as being logical and true to the human condition. The immoral life of atheists is a different mode of existence and not described so much by what it does as by how it does. This special life is not distinguished by its behavior. If this were not so, then an atheist behaving like a Christian and manifest worship would seem to be a Christian. We can put this objectionably in that they presumably cannot describe how it is that they differ other than to say that they choose to believe certain things about God, life, earth and the universe. But is the endless phenomenon of the earth's events including all natural occurrences and even Christ's death only to give us certain ideas? Well, if the doubtless unmoral life is not about behavior, what is it about?
In other words, an atheists chooses to believe what they want but reject the notion that has helped boroughs of people for centuries. You can even argue without belief in God we wouldn't be where we are as people or society today at all. Whether you believe or not, it's hard to deny that he has helped people to persevere through our harsh past. Now there is absolutely nothing wrong with their refusal to surmise God whatsoever but it is not the rejection of God that makes them seem immoral to most Christians today. However, it is the rejection of the greater and higher good. This seems to be an enormous misunderstanding that leads to crude and wasteful arguments. This greater good that is mentioned is based on moral obligation. It does not mean merely that we can find people around who claim to have certain duties. Nor does it mean that there have been many people who thought they were obliged to do certain things like clothing the naked and to avoid doing others like committing adultery.
The premise is claiming something more namely, that we human beings really are obligated that our duties arise from the way things really are, and not simply from our desires or subjective dispositions. It is claiming, in other words, that moral values or obligations themselves and not merely the belief in moral values are objective facts. And the way things really are, are perceived adversely. All of us on this site know this in spades, of course. Now given the fact of moral obligation, a question naturally arises. Does this picture of the world presented by atheism accord with this fact? Now truthfully, the answer is no. Why? There is a certain tunnel vision that guides the ultimate number of people not just on this site but primarily everywhere. This is the idea that either the atheistic view of reality is correct or the religious one involving God. Atheists never tire of telling that all are the chance products of the motion of matter, a motion which is purposeless and blind to every human striving. Now this is greatly reasonable and is sure a thought that everyone should determine for themselves no doubt. Given this picture, in what exactly is the moral good rooted? Moral obligation can hardly be rooted in a material motion blind to purpose. Can it?
Well we know this certainly that it is in the human state to believe we have a reason to inhabit this earth. But suppose we say our purpose is rooted in nothing deeper than human willing and desire. In that case, we have no moral standard against which human desires can be judged. For every desire will spring from the same ultimate source which would be purposeless, pitiless matter. And what becomes of obligation? According to this view, if I say there is an obligation to feed the hungry, I would be stating a fact about my wants and desires and nothing else. I would be saying that I want the hungry to be fed, and that I choose to act on that desire. But this amounts to an admission that neither I nor anyone else is really obliged to feed the hungry—that, in fact, no one has any real obligations at all. Therefore the atheistic view of reality is not compatible with there being genuine moral obligation in any form. This is why the typical atheist perspective, not all, of reality does not fit the ethical duty that humans are purposed to have. Unfortunately, this has not shown that ethical subjectivism is false or if there are even a such thing as objective values.
Furthermore, the argument assumes that there are objective values and it aims to show that believing in them is incompatible with one picture of the world, and quite compatible with another. Those two pictures are the atheistic and materialistic one, and the broadly speaking religious one. Now truthfully, there is not an objective picture as they are both viewpoints in their own right that either work with some people or not. Granted, if ethical subjectivism is true, then the argument does not work. However, almost no one is a consistent subjectivist. Many think they are, and say they are until they suffer violence or injustice. This explains why a lot fall in to mental traps because they maybe were determined to never steer that viewpoint. In that case they invariably stand with the rest of us in recognizing that certain things ought never to be done. And for the many who are not and never will be subjectivists, the argument can be most helpful. It can show them that to believe as they do in objective values is inconsistent with what they may also believe about the origin and destiny of the universe. If they move to correct the inconsistency, it will be a move toward the religious view and away from the atheistic one.
Nowadays, however, that view does not conclude to God but to some vague religious view. It is compatible, for example, with Platonic idealism, and many other beliefs that orthodox Christians find terribly deficient. But this general religious view is incompatible with materialism, and with any view that banishes value from the ultimate objective nature of things. That is the important point. And it is hard, if not impossible, to conceive of objective moral principles somehow floating around on their own, apart from any persons. It seems most reasonable that moral conscience is the voice of God within the soul, because moral value exists only on the level of persons, minds and wills. This does not have to be the Christian God and it doesn't even have to be a God to you as we all have a different perception of this. But I like to positively attribute this to something like a God or warrior within yourself that stops you from fallacious actions and that allows you to think intelligently. But again, as I said earlier, there is no proof that concept is the external sincerity. However, this supreme being is not necessarily the creator of anything, but is our sensible and sound mind that can be likened to a God if you want it to.
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Sin Inherited Humankind
by looter inso jws believe all humans have faults, problems, birth pangs, etc., because we all inherited sin from the original human being adam.
like i would like this to make since but why would jehovah do this to future humans who have done nothing wrong at all?
i think of it like if a parent has one child and that child really disobeyed her before then when the parent has a second child, she punishes that child because of what her first did.
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looter
So JWs believe all humans have faults, problems, birth pangs, etc., because we all inherited sin from the original human being Adam. Like I would like this to make sense but why would Jehovah do this to future humans who have done nothing wrong at all? I think of it like if a parent has one child and that child really disobeyed her before then when the parent has a second child, she punishes that child because of what her first did. Now that's not fair at all. Can someone hope to issue some logic to this? I hated how JWs would act like this made perfect sense but never really explained it thoroughly. The explanation was always that since one human sinned, all humans sin. Makes no sense.
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Things JW's and Atheists have in common
by juandefiero ini was just thinking about something someone said on another thread.
to paraphrase, 'jw beliefs like there being no hellfire, immortal soul, the condition at death...have the ring of truth.'.
i realized, atheists believe these things too!.
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looter
Each has very strong beliefs in what they believe to be right. And they each feel that what they believe in must be right and is what everyone should adhere to. They live their life through what they believe no matter if it hurts others around. -
45
Don't know what to do
by looter ini'm in a crazy situation.
about a year ago, i was going to get baptized.
it was all planned and arranged until ttatt was learned.
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looter
Thanks all. Now about my family. I have an aunt and uncle who are jw and are very close with my father. They usually are the ones who stop my father from going off the handle on me. Unfortunately, they live like 200 miles upstate and have like 5 kids so their hands are full. I also have a niece who is like 11 years older than me and not a witness who lives in the same county as me. Dad has a little grudge against her. He doesn't really get along with her even though she is seriously like a mother to me. We have a mother son type of bond but she's living with her boyfriend and I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with that but I think she'd take me in. Her father who is my brother is in prison.
Just wish getting baptized wasn't such a big deal to my father. Why does he have to make it so stressful when it is suppose to be a personal decision? I'm glad to have so much amount of help here. That is the best thing about this forum. I once tried to reason with my dad about 2 months ago but that resulted in a bad physical altercation. In his mind, if it is not a Jehovah's witness, then it's wrong. I like what brusbrother said. I'm going to put on my best behavior and stall without telling a lie. I'm not really interested in the military even though its benefits are great.
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Don't know what to do
by looter ini'm in a crazy situation.
about a year ago, i was going to get baptized.
it was all planned and arranged until ttatt was learned.
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looter
Hello, all. I'm in a crazy situation. About a year ago, I was going to get baptized. It was all planned and arranged until TTATT was learned. We all were about to study the Inspired publication for me to get baptized and since I learned the TTATT I blatantly refused. When my father found out, he became furious and said that if I wasn't baptized by the time I was 18, then he'd kick me out of the house.
We didn't talk about it for like 6 months after that but lately he has been very short tempered in the way he was when he first learned I refused. Will be 18 in 4 months and his attitude right now is making me nervous. I don't know what to do. My mother is homeless and an alcoholic and I really don't want anything to do with her because the people who she hangs out with are part of a bad gang.
So should I just get baptized even knowing TTATT or be homeless? I'm doing pretty well in school right now and have an afterschool job but the way he is acting right now just makes everything unnecessarily intense. I love my father and want him to be happy but don't want to do the wrong thing by getting baptized even though he knows I'm not really into it anymore. What shall I do?
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46
Groanfest. Share your daftest jokes .
by jhine inlots of serious stuff being discussed on site .
i thought!it would be nice to make each other groan/ smile for a change .please share your corniest ,punniest , or daftest joke .. i will start with this shocker , borrowed from tim vine .. vandalism in a multi story carpark ....... ...................................,............................ wrong on sooo many levels !.
come on now share yours.
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looter
Two Jehova's males in ugly and funky dark blue dress up clothes knock on the door of an elderly woman.
She opens the door and asks who they are.
They tell her that they are Jehova's Witnesses and she lets them both inside.
She authoritatively mandates them to take a seat on her sofa, and asks if they would relish a nice refreshing cup of tea or coffee.
"Two teas would be nice, please, we sure could use it" comes the replication.
Then she asks if they would relish custard creams with their drinks.
"Oh, yes please, that would be lovely, and God surely likes that." comes the replication.
Five minutes later the geriatric woman comes back into the front room and places the drinks and biscuits on the table, sits down and verbalizes, "So what is it that you want to talk to me about?"
The first Jehova shrugs his shoulders and verbalizes, "Oh, we actually don't know ,ma'am, this is the furthest that we have ever got."