I disagree, cofty. If said person has extremely similar standards to an atheist and he judges them that way just because of what they believe, then they aren't being fair. A person that ties morality with what they believe as a supreme being can lead to "bad ethics" but can also forward said person to good morals that he never would have had without that unfounded belief in a God. I wouldn't say one form of ethics is superior to another because they each can lead to good or bad lengths. Some disbelievers are just too rational that they lose or never even had feelings for their common man and Christians along with other believers of God can think that God wants them to do something so shameful that it doesn't even matter the person. They really are just two sides of the same coin, after all.
looter
JoinedPosts by looter
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
Not all Christians have that uncaring attitude toward people or do the three things you mentioned but some do and not proud of that. "Without god we have to reason on the consequences of our actions and try to make good decisions." Wait a minute. It's possible to believe in God and still own up to everything you do as a person. Matter of fact, that's what you could argue Jesus taught his disciples. But of course there are the other side of the coin.
Like in the original post, cofty, my main point was that ability to reason on consequences and "make objective decisions" can be likened to a God within ourselves but I understand if you'd rather not call it a God. The reason why I prefer to term it that way is because when people think of God they think of all knowing and the personification of goodness. Well, we have this in our ability to be rational, solve problems, and not be a problem ourselves. Because in past centuries most didn't even encompass these abilities. Personally, that's what I think the bible is most about in part is letting yourself decide what's right for you based on what Jesus and God says.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
I'm not pleading to do that at all, Bonsai. Specifically, I'm talking about the belief in God and morality. The main concept is that a person can trust God and have just as much morality as anyone else.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
Simon you are right they can be immoral, a lot of them. But so can atheist and pretty much anyone. I was particularly looking at it in the way that all parties are moral even taking into consideration the flaws of each. On the other hand, it does seem that there are a lot of blasphemers who operate on their own corrupt impulses under on God's name.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
Thank you KateWild. As for my previous situation, it has gotten a lot better and worse at the same time. My father since then has calmed down and treated me normal because he saw that my mother would get no better. Unfortunately, he got injured and now has to wear 2 knee braces which sucks because sometimes you think if you would have just got baptized, non of this would have happened.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
A Christian believer can have all the virtuous codes that a nonbeliever has, cofty. Of course this doesn't include all the horrific acts that people claim is justified by God. What I'm trying to say is that two people that have very similar values and morals but have a different method or approach to reach those same standards. It isn't gentle to include all Christians in a certain like when there are some that have completely rational values such as yourself.
But certain believers will always spurn an atheist's way of thinking not because they are childish but because the sole reason why they have good standards is perhaps because of a God they trust. There has been some evidence that believing in God can help block anxiety and minimize stress in certain people. I personally don't like that because they only believe in God because of that not because of genuine certainty. That's unfortunate for them but that's how their brain is wired.
"Of course in reality christians don't actually get their ethics from some absolute external standard. They mostly reason on consequences just like non-believers but they then go back and superimpose god onto decisions they have already made. God is the ultimate sockpuppet." Not all. Most Christians do not believe God to be false. There are some that use him for their diversion, but we're not talking about those. We're talking about the high-minded. The ones that actually know it's wrong to murder. The biggest point I'm trying to make though is that just like believers believe there is a God and he is the splitting image of right and wrong, atheists to believe in a complimentary morality even if it's highly disputable between each perspective. The two sides just have an enormous distinction in assumption.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
Outlaw, there's usually two primary positions that most occupy. That is pretty reasonable as most people fall on either side and a good volume for the edge. We have to remember that it takes two to argue and I've seem countless scrimmages of this not just on here, but everywhere. We do not have the supernatural ability to look into someone and see which of these skeptics they are. We must use discernment by looking at what they say and how they say it. If someone starts off with an angry ad hominem attack and inherently refuses everything some person say as the babbling of idiots and morons, then that person has revealed themselves.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
In reply to redvip2000, It's never been easy for me to convey what I think but that was my fault for not writing that sentence right. What I was said was how cofty said all Christians believe in Jesus and I disagreed with him. As for the bible, your position on this is respected but Christians see value in it and there really isn't anything wrong with that unless they are trying to murder folks and or doing terrible acts.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
Yes. Every Christian believes that their God is the image of righteousness. But what I'm saying is that everyone has their own image of morality even if it rejects the belief in God. Not everyone is completely rational because we're not robots or machines. Just like we believe in logical thinking, there is a certain conception that we submit ourselves to since we are only human beings. Absolute and objective morality are very similar because in both, each party assesses candor to what they believe to be true based on their own personal perspective. It's just that one appoints a supreme deity and the other doesn't.
You say that you aren't trying to find any moral standard yet you say, "That means that good and bad are assessed against the consequences for the well-being of conscious creatures. So there are real moral truths.", which means that you feel you have found an ideal moral truth in your eyes. There is hardly a difference in that and absolute morality.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
That's true cofty in a lot of cases. But anyone can be immoral and that was the viewpoint I had in that that each side is equal and generally wants to do the right thing. Not every Christian believes "essential good out there somewhere against which everything must be measured" as there are some that believers that don't put that in their devotion to all that is goodness. And I wouldn't say it's childish to believe that so much as it's intuitive to believe or wonder that something else is out there because everyone has their own view as you do yours.
You mentioned that Christians have filled in on you about what they felt was rightful decimation. Obviously, it's not. But I think the mistake people make is placing all Christians in that category when all atheists aren't the same even though they may believe in similar principles. To be honest, absolute morality can be tied in with objective morality but like you said they are different. But to say that all Christians possess objective morality such as those you mentioned isn't true.