Ray Franz makes a big point of the fact that the org never really admitted it was wrong for all the changes in doctrine and expectations for 1914, and then attempted to shift the blame to the ordinary bros and sis for expecting things that never took place. The org has often quoted the example of Saul as someone who minimised his own mistakes and shifted the blame to others for things he was really responsible for. Shame they don't fess up and take the blame themselves once in a while. What would be wrong with honesty? We can respect someone who honestly admits a mistake and tries to change. But if he doesn't...
thedog1
JoinedPosts by thedog1
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27
Ray Franz
by thedog1 inam reading coc at the moment, about half way through.
just finished reading some of the details of what happened in malawi and mexico years ago.
which reminded me that in the early 80's a very well known elder in the country i was then living in went to new york as he had discovered all the discrepencies between what had happened in malawi and in mexico and wanted to know what the gb had to say about it.
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27
Ray Franz
by thedog1 inam reading coc at the moment, about half way through.
just finished reading some of the details of what happened in malawi and mexico years ago.
which reminded me that in the early 80's a very well known elder in the country i was then living in went to new york as he had discovered all the discrepencies between what had happened in malawi and in mexico and wanted to know what the gb had to say about it.
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thedog1
Am reading CoC at the moment, about half way through. Just finished reading some of the details of what happened in Malawi and Mexico years ago. Which reminded me that in the early 80's a very well known elder in the country I was then living in went to New York as he had discovered all the discrepencies between what had happened in Malawi and in Mexico and wanted to know what the GB had to say about it. Anyway, he did not get a satisfactory answer and proceeded to demonstrate outside the gates of the district convention in relation to this and other issues. At the time he was completely demonised by the local bros and we were warned not to listen to him. I thought at the time that he was a terrible apostate as he took most of his local congregation with him when he left the org. I had heard rumours of the Mexico situation but until tonight when i read the part in CoC about it I never understood what had really happened. It only took me about 30 years to catch up!
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Thoughts on going back, am I the only one that feels this way?
by excaliber inhello everyone, i know you have heard this topic before and your probably thinking.
...not again lol.. but i was wondering if anyone has thought of going back for the same reasons as myself, i don't think its the truth but i searched and my conclusion is that other religions don't have the truth, they are all wrong in my opinion.
if there is no other religion to go too, why leave were i was born and raised.
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thedog1
Simon Templar, maybe you are a bit of a saint! Just a joke! You sound very sensible. I agree with you in some ways that the weekly pioneer praising is a bit much. As if you have to justify it if you do not pioneer. This caused enormous problems for my wife who pioneered for seven years which nearly wrecked her whole life. She is a very shy person and this really took everything out of her. She is now, after almost 40 years baptised, a physical and mental wreck. The pressure of pioneering , living up to unrealistic standards and feeling guilty about it all has made her into a hermit, almost, and now she is struggling to get to meetings. She finds the interaction, which is mostly loving and done out of concern from the bros and sis to be very difficult. She has a stronger faith than I do, and I am an elder! She really believes that it is all true, whereas I see the holes and the inconsistencies, the generation teaching , the mind control, the danger of voicing any dissent. We also avoid the CO and wife when they visit. We also have some very right-wing elders who have been drafted in recently to sort out some problems in the congegation. So they are company men with whom one dares not voice any doubts or variations from the party line. Interesting that you can just rise above the doctrinal and historic issues and simply carry on in your own way. I am also a cautious person who, if I ever did fade, would do it in a non-controversial way and never voice any doubts or contrary views. Not sure if I could continue to simply go along if I really did not believe any of it any more.
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Disciplinary Actions
by Cold Steel induring a disciplinary procedure, what would the response be if you wanted representation?
an advocate?.
why don't they have a group of unbiased men, a prosecutor to present the case against you and an advocate that would represent the accused?
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thedog1
Have to go now, hope to respond more later today or tomorrow.
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43
Disciplinary Actions
by Cold Steel induring a disciplinary procedure, what would the response be if you wanted representation?
an advocate?.
why don't they have a group of unbiased men, a prosecutor to present the case against you and an advocate that would represent the accused?
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thedog1
Ecan6, I have sent you a pm
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thedog1
sorry, that should be horses for courses.
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thedog1
Strictly speaking, of course I should not be posting here, but it's horse for courses. Some could not bring themselves to post before jumping ship, and that is understandable. But it is important for others to vent and attempt to understand things by discussing with other people who get it.
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43
Disciplinary Actions
by Cold Steel induring a disciplinary procedure, what would the response be if you wanted representation?
an advocate?.
why don't they have a group of unbiased men, a prosecutor to present the case against you and an advocate that would represent the accused?
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thedog1
Hi humbled,
that account, as we know, is about Abraham offering up his son. So this impacted on you in some way. Let me know how this affected you. Would like to know.
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43
Disciplinary Actions
by Cold Steel induring a disciplinary procedure, what would the response be if you wanted representation?
an advocate?.
why don't they have a group of unbiased men, a prosecutor to present the case against you and an advocate that would represent the accused?
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thedog1
ok, cantleave, I can understand your antipathy to the governing body, based on your experience. I stated in a previous post that I have some misgivings now about the sort of mind control that goes on in the org, where you cannot express how you feel at the risk of sanctions from the gb. A number of years ago, a close relative of mine was df'd unjustly. At the time I wrote a letter to the branch office in the country I was then living in, asking the bros what they were going to do about it, and accusing them, in a diplomatic sort of way, of living in an ivory tower, and not being attuned to the ordinary bro or sis. At the time, my wife was sure I would be severely censured, as I was, as I am now, serving as an elder. Amazingly, the branch wrote back to me in a very kind way, saying that they were continuing to investigate the circumstances of the case and would review it in time. They wanted to assure me that they were not in an 'ivory tower' and did care about the bros and sis in the congs. Anyway, the close relative was eventually re-instated and told that he should never have been df'd. He was never given a full apology and has never felt the same about the org since. His wife almost gave up but hung in there and is still a JW, as is he. He used to be an elder and had given his whole life to the org. So, understandably, he is bitter to an extent. I do not want to or intend to be an apologist for things that are wrong with the org. I too struggle with the lack of accountability and the complete lack of opportunities to express any doubts or misgivings. These things are part of human nature, our questioning nature. Jesus message is one of love, but even Jesus did counsel to view others as 'a man of the nations and a tax collector' if they did not listen to repeated counsel. Jesus' love was very encompassing, but he did not preach a form of unconditional love, that no matter what you do, it is all right with him. This sounds a bit dogmatic to some people, but Jesus has standards. He is willing to forgive, but we can also take advantage of that. I am not saying that this is what you mean exactly, but the scriptures do counsel to remove the wicked man from among yourselves, as Paul said. This is not to say that we should not be able to question the GB, and as I do not know the details of what you mention, how could I form an opinion on it, even if that opinion had any merit in your eyes, which it probably would not?
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43
Disciplinary Actions
by Cold Steel induring a disciplinary procedure, what would the response be if you wanted representation?
an advocate?.
why don't they have a group of unbiased men, a prosecutor to present the case against you and an advocate that would represent the accused?
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thedog1
humbled, not too up on how to pm, tried to click on link on the top of your last post to pm, is that how you do it? But it showed an error message. Would like to respond to your msg on page one, but I don't understand it fully. Can you explain it a bit more? Sorry, did not quite get it?