Posts by Gentledawn

9

Interesting article considering what's happening begging for money in the congregations

by JakeM2012 in

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/14/us/sunday-stickup/index.html.

i thought this article had some interesting interesting comments including this, "if a pastor or church leader has ever told you that the bible commands christians to tithe or give 10% of their income; hit you up for multiple offerings during one service; made you march up front to give; asked you to donate to a mysterious "building fund" or give a "first-fruit" offering; or even given special recognition to big givers in your congregation, lee and other pastors have a message for you:.

you are getting played.. these rituals, they say, violate new testament teachings about how and why people should give.

Gentledawn

Quoting from the article, because this goes to show the May JW.Borg broadcast had a money-making consultant advising them from the wings:

Were these people cheerful or gullible givers? For Lee, a church elder who spent 30 years marketing and selling church products, they were victims of the "Sunday morning stickup" -- his term for manipulative tactics pastors and churches use to get your money.

No. 3: Distorting two popular scriptures

Some pastors don't just distort a scriptural passage. They misuse scriptural phrases -- such as the "first fruit offering."

First fruit offerings were agricultural offerings that the Israelites gave to God in the Old Testament, says Lee, of "Sunday Morning Stickup." Yet some pastors invoke that phrase to tell people that God commands them to give the "first fruits" of their financial bounty, which could mean someone giving everything from the first check of the year to the first check one received after a job promotion.

"It's a misapplication of scripture," Lee says. "They encourage individuals that before they pay their bills, before they buy their groceries or do anything with their finances, many of them say 'You have to take care of God first.' ''

If pastors and churches are so cunning when asking for money, what can stop the manipulation? One pastor says technology may be the answer.

The collection plate, the symbol of the offering, is going the way of VHS videos.

The church is on the verge of a digital revolution in giving, says Albertson, the Lutheran pastor. More people are donating through online bank accounts and credit card swipes, he wrote in an essay, "What Will the End of the Offering Plate Mean for Christian Worship."

"Nobody carries money in their wallets anymore," Albertson says. "There's a big movement up ahead of shifting over to various online giving platforms and digital platforms."

Still, Albertson is not so sure that this digital revolution will end the practice of pastors shaking down congregations for money.

"Religious leaders will find a way to use guilt somehow," he says.

Some say that using guilt isn't bad. Shouldn't people be shamed if they're not generous? But how and why someone should be generous -- perhaps that's ultimately up to the person in the pew.

So when the organist hits those celestial chords to signal offering time or a smiling usher beckons you out of your pew, ask yourself:

Am I about to freely give -- or is this a Sunday morning stickup?

36

"Mentally Diseased" comment makes news

by freemindfade in

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/985479.

i know it's old but i never saw this one before.

.

Gentledawn

Ruby456 original post that I replied to at the start:

Another thing is that if the investigators checked with sociololgists and psychologists they would find that new religious movements and cults do attract lots of people who do have mental illnesses and that those who have a mental illness do not remain within these organisations for very long and when they do leave they very often leave in anger and rage. So for a new religious movement to tell its followers have nothing to do with apostates as they are mentally ill/mentally diseased they cannot be held responsible for inciting hatred if it is the case that there is mental illness involved. Plus if the whole thrust of the article is saying stay away from them, do not engage them they are simply saying what the police or anyone else in authority would say - take responsibility to avoid rather than confront, keep safe.

then again if apostates are the ones inciting hatred of Jehovahs it would only be right for Jehovahs witnesses to warn its followers to avoid them - it would be the rational and indeed law abiding thing to

so really this is a non starter imo.

Breakdown of what you seem to be claiming here:

• "new religions" (aka 19th century doomsday cults and fundamentalist movements) attract people who are already mentally ill (<--- I asked for a citation regarding this claim), ones who don't stay in very long
• people leave "the truth"
• therefore, people who leave are mentally ill/diseased

The watchtower does NOT disfellowship (oust) and subsequently shun people who leave due to mental illness. They are told to shun EVERYONE who leaves.

gentedawn

Hunsberger and Brown 1984, atran 2004

other than the above ("Hunsberger and Brown 1984, atran 2004"), you don't need to convince me as I know what you are saying already, but what does the law and the police require of religion? for example where is there any incitefulness to hatred in the watchtower extract when what it is saying is to avoid - and avoid false teachers and apostates at that?

Then, by way of reply:

I'm not cherry picking - the link between mental illness and new religious movements was a shock for me. But then again 1 in four people will experience mental illness according to the Mental health foundation so I'll admit that this a controversial arena.

Your original statement was that "new religious movements" ATTRACT people with mental illness, meaning they were ill before joining the religion/becoming a JW. Then when asked for a citation, you gave the name of 2 researchers as a reference plus a year-date, a comma, followed by a vague "altran 2004".

36

"Mentally Diseased" comment makes news

by freemindfade in

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/985479.

i know it's old but i never saw this one before.

.

Gentledawn

Hunsberger and Brown 1984, atran 2004

That is incomplete information. Seriously, can you at least cite the name of the study or article that you're allegedly cherry-picking your info?

Here's a study:
"Who benefits from religion?"
http://www.people.hbs.edu/mnorton/mochon%20norton%20ariely%202011.pdf

That study cites "Hunsberger & Brown" in its references, a book/article titled "Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion". That lead to the next internet search, which turned up this:

Chapter 12
Religion and Mental Disorder
Religion as a Hazard to Mental Health
http://softdevlabs.com/personal/psych/disorder.html

Research Box 12.7.
Rigid Religiosity and Mental Health
(Stifoss-Hansen, 1994)

"Religious bodies possess rules and regulations that people can often interpret in ways ranging from an easy flexibility to a rigid absolutism. The latter has been defined in one major study as a "law-orientation." a In the present study, a scale of rigid-flexible religiosity was developed and administered to 56 volunteer hospitalized neurotic patients and a control group of 70 nonpatients. The first group scored significantly higher than the controls on the scale, demonstrating that a rigid religiosity is a correlate of, at least, severely neurotic thinking and behavior. The author is inclined to suggest a positive relationship between mental disturbance and an extrinsic religious orientation. "
_____________________________________________
a Strommen, Brekke, Underwager, and Johnson (1972).

--------------

That is one studys findings. It does not state that religion attracts people with mental illness, just that participating in rigid religiosity "demonstrating that a rigid religiosity is a correlate of, at least, severely neurotic thinking and behavior.".

Nothing in that study supports your claim that higher number of religious recruits are already mentally ill ("diseased") before they join, or that "new" religions (don't Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be Christians?) automatically attracts high numbers of mentally "diseased" persons.

- - -

In the case of law (which was not talked about by me prior to this), it goes back to whether or not the clergy in that particular church are qualified to diagnose such a thing and if those were the actual reasons why the person left the church.

Leaving the church is a human right. The watchtower cannot claim human rights for itself as an organizational whole, and then deny individuals their basic human rights by punishing those who leave.

THE UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Article 18.
• Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

- - -

In fact, the watchtower signed an agreement with a country, in order to carry on their preaching work:they would not disfellowship people who accepted blood transfusions. So what did watchtower do to punish people for violating their man-made rule? If the person accepted blood transfusions, they would be counted as disassociating themselves, which is the exact same thing as disfellowshipping.

"Bulgaria, the Watchtower and Blood Transfusions"

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/bulgaria-blood-transfusions.php

36

"Mentally Diseased" comment makes news

by freemindfade in

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/985479.

i know it's old but i never saw this one before.

.

Gentledawn

if the investigators checked with sociologists and psychologists they would find that new religious movements and cults do attract lots of people who do have mental illnesses

Source?

So for a new religious movement to tell its followers have nothing to do with apostates as they are mentally ill/mentally diseased they cannot be held responsible for inciting hatred if it is the case that there is mental illness involved.

"new religious movements" sporting largely high school educated priests (elders, COs) can now diagnose diseases?

What you've done throughout your entire reply is use straw-man arguments, which is a type of logical fallacy.

The Watchtower (aka JW [dot] bOrg) ---and other religions like it-- simply want the people on the inside to stay isolated and ignorant. It has nothing to do with former members being the problem. Watchtower treats former members the same way an abusive spouse treats their victims: they (watchtower) never do anything wrong. It's always the victim(s) who are at fault for everything.

Of course the watchtower isn't using deceptive tactics. After all, it's impossible for them to lie, because they are Jehovah.

59

2015 Convention Reminders Video!

by Atlantis in

credit goes to mike & kim.. .. https://youtu.be/yj3x6wjrsaq .

.. .. atlantis!.

Gentledawn

74

Who leaves first, the husband or wife?

by snugglebunny in

jw
friends

when it comes to a simple matter of no longer believing the teachings of jw's, it appears to me that it's more common for the husband to make the first move to leave the religion.

Gentledawn

I think the real issue is, sumptin needs to be dun 'bout them wimmen drivers. Am I right?

quote -"You see me rollin' up pops, you step aside."

"Hark! a vagrant" comics

http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=331

Goddamned velocipedestriennes anyway.

From the author of the above-linked comic:

Happy New Year everyone!

Just playing around with drawing pictures.

The greatest thing about the invention of the bicycle and ladies starting to ride them is: everything. The clothes! The bikes! The attitude! But perhaps especially: the scads of satirical cartoons made at the time that were supposed to make women look shocking and inappropriate but just makes them look super stylish and badass instead. I just can't get over the cigarette in the cartoon I used though, and the splayed legs as she rumbles willy-nilly down the street. God, is there anything better than cartoons?

Incidentally, 'velocipedestrienne,' not a word I made up. You're looking for page 89 of this very informative contemporary read. I enjoyed the chapter very much. You would not believe how many words they manage to birth out of the word 'velocipede' in that book. If you notice the date you'll see that I stuck a phonograph in the cartoon about ten years too early and well that is just because I can do what I like around here.

47

I'm Ready... Thank you

by Garrett in

jw
friends

hey guys,.

so, something amazing happened recently.

i recently met with an old and very good friend of mine.

Gentledawn

In the end, it is their choice to shun me based on my decision to make it clear that I was no longer a JW, not mine. DA is simply making a statement I am no longer JW. "Playing by their rules" is choosing to treat a person who did so according to WTS edict.

When they announce a person as 'disassociated' they make no specific difference between that and disfellowshipping. The dishonesty all around is on the watchtower leadership, every goddamned time.

Me? I DA'd. People at the hall still tell my husband that they said hello and want to go out for coffee or what-not.

^ That is not the norm. My thinking is they're trying to appease my husband in some way.

In fact, when i wasn't attending meetings prior to my DA letter, they didn't call or come around to the house whatsoever. <-- THAT is the norm.

If you don't attend meetings, that is a "sign" of your spiritual state. What a load of hooey-manure, as Bugs Bunny would say.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter if you DA or not. If you don't slave away for the so-called "SLAVE" (aka leadership, the true publishers, and all their enforcers down the chain of command), then they will shun you anyway.

74

Who leaves first, the husband or wife?

by snugglebunny in

jw
friends

when it comes to a simple matter of no longer believing the teachings of jw's, it appears to me that it's more common for the husband to make the first move to leave the religion.

Gentledawn

In my family, I left first (wife). Husband is still in, but I think he's finally catching on; he's missing a lot of meetings and has missed 'field serve-us' (didn't report any activity for whole month) at least 3 times in the past 6 months. Here's to hoping.

The woman I initially studied with left (officially DA'd, letter to elders and all) about a decade or more ago, along with all her children. Her husband remarried and is still 'in'.

Wife - 2

Husband (s) - 0

62

NAILING DOWN the fraud of John 1:1 by demonstration

by TerryWalstrom in

call me crazy, but i love to watch seminary classes when sharp teachers are in charge of the instruction.. in the following video, the teacher really nails jehovah's witnesses on john 1:1 with utter simplicity.. begin at 1 hour and 20 minutes in.. i've never seen or heard of this before.. .

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_5qkj7tmbg.

Gentledawn

Here's another place to research John 1:1 (about as dry as a cracker as far as fun goes, tho... lol)
http://www.letusreason.org/JW38.htm

42

Pope thinks hitting children is "Beautiful"

by cofty in

one time, i heard a father in a meeting with married couples say `i sometimes have to smack my children a bit, but never in the face so as to not humiliate them.how beautiful!

he knows the sense of dignity!

he has to punish them but does it justly and moves on.

Gentledawn

Beating a person who is pleading with you not to do it? Repeatedly hitting them over and over and over...

The beatings do damage, too. The fact that the parent (spouse, what-not) ignores the pleas is equally and possibly more damaging, imo.

My parents had the habit of beating us with wooden bamboo canes. The offense to warrant such whippings? Missed a phone call (older sisters boyfriend, of all things), and/or didn't remember to write down the message or the callers name. Or they can't find something they (either parent) have been trying to find for whole minutes of their very important lives.

Perhaps that young girl in the video would not have posted up nude pictures of herself to facebook if some caring adult in her life had taken the time to actually talk and teach her how and why doing it is so wrong and damaging.

People are people.

And abuse is abuse. As is neglect.