Posts by PelicanBeach

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PelicanBeach

Cofty,

You're right. In my mind I separate theism from Christianity in that I believe not just in a God but in Christ and the Bible as well. But you're right it was a contradiction.

Pelican

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

any trials, difficulties, sufferings, etc faced as a christian--are they not justified or at leadt does the Christian not gain a sense of relief by the prospect or hope in a promise of everlasting life without the suffering of the flesh?

I believe many people will have eternal life not just Christians. The sheep and the goats illustration in Matthew supports this view, imo.

and contrary to what you have said all Christians suffer at some point in their life...in which case they would look to the promised hope of salvation and God (who provides it) for comfort.

I believe all good people suffer in their lives, Christians included among them.

If I have not answered your question sufficiently please rephrase it again if you don' mind.

Pelican

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PelicanBeach

Viviane,

Pelican, is anyone on this thread trying to restrict your freedom of belief?

No, of course not.

I am participating on a forum which allows all to add their thoughts and views as long as they follow the posting guidelines.

Atheists and Christians here regularly trade jabs with one another, like Neo and Morpheus. This place can feel just as surreal.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PelicanBeach

Cofty,

I admitted it was very hard to understand and I truly do not believe ends always justify the means. You say your argument is with theism not simply Christianity. Well I'm not a theist so perhaps that's why we keep passing one another by.

DS211, most Christians especially in the west do not suffer all that much for their faith. Also atheists, deists, muslims and a whole bunch of the other people suffer all the ills of this life right along with Christians. The people who suffer the most are those who try to do some good in this world and they are found in every religion and among atheists as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying being a Christian is not important, I believe it is important. The Workers in the Vineyard illustration keeps coming to mind where the early workers got the same pay as those who came on the field late. I believe many will come onboard in the end. I do believe in heaven and an earthly resurrection.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PelicanBeach

Doofdaddy,

I think Christians, like all other people, should be allowed their choice of belief and conscience as long as they do not force others to believe as they do, don't you?

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PelicanBeach

My complaint is not that you claim your god will try to make it all better, its that you think the promise of paradise justifies his monstrous behaviour.

I never said "the promise of paradise justifies" anything.

According to you there is no attrocity that isn't justified by the opium of heaven.

Again, I never said that.

Humans are not pawns to be used and abused by god.

I agree.

It is dehumanising and makes god into an abusive parent.

I agree.

Christianity does not have a good record. Christianity as a whole has failed to live up to its claim to follow the Christ. As a group atheists have a better claim to integrity than Christianity does due to the fact that Christianity having falsely insisted she is the pinacle of good has lied and manipulated her way to power over others for almost 2000 years.

Pelican

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PelicanBeach

Cofty,

You can add the comment below to your summary of Christian "stupidity", you left yourself open for it. This thread has been a game of chess with Christians playing the pawn role. I don't mind, it's fair. We deserve it.

You wrote, "How would you judge a scientist who imposed the most horrific suffering on millions of people, as unwilling subjects of his experiment, but who gave all of them one of the magic pills when it was over?"

The best people to ask would be the Japanese people who survived the atomic bombs dropped on them. Would they have wanted a pill to help them forget the pain and suffering? Don't know but I guess many would have. Sorry, you left yourself open for that one.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PelicanBeach

Adam,

"...however you cut it, a God that claims to have created EVERYTHING in the Universe is going to have to take not only the credit and glory for the good, but also the blame for the bad."

I agree.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PelicanBeach

Adam,

I originally wrote,

"I’m certain that in Jesus’ day there were many natural disasters occurring in many parts of the earth. Hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, erupting volcanoes went on as usual. His message and life’s work was not about preventing these natural events taking place in his day.

"It is the same with God....."

So yes, I do believe God is not today preventing natural disasters because that is not what he is doing now. I don't claim to know all the answers but it seems to me that there is a purpose to all this. I can only go by what Jesus said and did. His life was spent doing a work that he felt was important, a work his Father sent him to do. That work did not YET mean that natural disasters would stop. In the future I believe God will cause the earth to settle down just as Jesus calmed the waters in the storm. But now I'm getting too much into belief and the Bible subjects that cause more distress than their worth here.

I appreciated your post.

Pelican

Edited to add: Adam I replied to your post as it was first written before it was edited.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

PelicanBeach

Cofty,

When believers and non-believers or atheists, however you chose to be characterized, get into these discussions there are blind spots on both sides. Human, very human, when opposing sides set in their beliefs or views come together.

You wrote, "The first paragraph does not deal with why it is god does not stop natural disasters. It simply affirms that he doesn't."

Of Jesus I wrote, "His message and life’s work was not about preventing these natural events taking place in his day." Jesus did not come to stop natural disasters he came to fulfill the law, to preach the Kingdom, to gather to himself his disciples, to declare his Father's word, to reveal the hypocrisy of the Jewish leaders, to do a host of things but not to prevent natural disasters. His message and life's work was NOT about preventing these natural disasters. Yes, I did say why. You just did not see it. As I also have a problem seeing your points all the time. We pass by one another and I don't think that will change.

But I believe we can at least respect each other's choices and conscience. I will try to work harder at understanding your point of view but I ask that you refrain from throwing condescending remarks my way as well. I'm a little hot headed at times but I do try to be fair.

Pelican