Posts by Viviane

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Viviane

No, it doesn't. I does not change anything that I have measured to be known with certainty.

Sorry, apologies, but you clearly mean "really believe" instead of know. After all, you think an "engineer's scale" (whatever that is) is used to count money. You've given us only less reason to think you "know" things.

It does not invalidate the reason the Bible gives for pain and suffering after sin.

It means the reason is a lie since it existed prior to the reason. Your blood god has demanded death prior to the supposed reason. He is a liar and you give him fealty. For shame.

You can refer to those reasons as excuses based on your rule of good and bad but "you are not running the USA."

As a resident of the USA, I can proudly say that neither are you. Also, we are becoming far less religious and more secular over time, resulting in improved freedoms, better education, more civil rights and less ignorance. I hope you join that group.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Viviane

Maybe. But there is no way to understand what she wrote.

Cofty got it. Maybe there was no way for you to understand it?

First cofty,my post was a response to DOT, who broadly seemed to. It was not directed at V.

If you want to write something to a specific person without the possibility of others reading it and commenting, use a PM.

Anyone that took the time to read my post about counting my money 3 times (measured it with an engineer's scale) should understand, I hope, that that is how one knows something with certainty versus believing something.

You clearly have no idea how to count money, certainly.

The (fact?) that pain and suffering existed before sin does not change anything that I know.

What, specifically, do you know that hasn't changed?

Facts do change beliefs as I demonstrated in my story about the bank teller

That story only demonstrated that you had faith in someone and didn't know how to count money.

That is what was implied in "my answer is know."

Works you how English know do?

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Viviane

I think that was the implied question.

You, wonderful man, win a chicken dinner.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Viviane

Did, running before the fall of man, If it is a fact that pain and suffering existed, make my money grow? My answer is know

Do English you work how know?

102

A couple questions for atheists on Suffering

by little_Socrates in

who told you that the world should be free from suffering?.

do you find any value in suffering?.

do you think it is possible to experience all the beauty and goodness and pleasure the world offers without also experiencing the bad?

Viviane

Cofty use platitude in exactly the correct manner.

26

Are the USA and Russia the key actors in end time prophecy?

by scotoma in

jw
friends

what's the problem with prophecy?prophecy primarily requires a pattern recognition or insightful strategy not an analytical strategy.

prophecy rarely gives names whether of empires or their rulers.

even the name of the messiah - yeshua -wasn't foretold.

Viviane

What is your basis for reasoning on this?

The 100% failure rate of everyone attempting to interpret Bible prophecies.

It's one of the rules for the prophecy game. If you want to play the game you have to accept the rules.

Fantastic! Please show me where these rules are, that they are work and aren't simply a made up load of bunk designed to excuse failed speculation and prediction.

I could list more versions but they all seem to indicate that understanding will emerge from an increase of knowledge

Actually, none of them say that. This is a case of layering on things that aren't in the text, a typical prophecy trick. They say knowledge will grow, you are adding on the understanding part yourself. It's not actually part of the text in any way.

So, we have a 100% failure rate, some vague mention of "rules" that no one has seen, aren't published and give a convenient out whenever a predictor is wrong and a fabrication at worst, misunderstanding a best, of what the Bible actually says.

So, why should anyone, given this, listen to ANY end time prophecy?

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Viviane

You don't know and it is relevant.

OK, explain how crappy and unreliable ways of measuring things by people carrying around "engineering scales" in their pockets is relevant to you misunderstanding science, religion, logic and critical thinking, please.

Oh, wait, it's examples of using the wrong tool for the job, much like using religion as a moral guide. Now it makes sense.

1 I have done something

Name one.

2 I am not ignoring arguments and I am able to refute.

One example would be lovely.

3 Yes, It could mean that I am actually using logic.

It could, but it doesn't.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Viviane

He takes out his ruler, I saw him measure it and he tells me that it was not the correct size. I take out my engineering scale, I measured it once, twice, three times, and it was short.

I know this story is completely irrelevant and now how money is ever counted.

Anyway, you've done nothing to prove you worship anything but a bloodthirsty death god, despite your protests. Also, you clearly are ignoring arguments you don't like or can't refute. Simply using the word logic doesn't mean you are actually using logic.

9

Measles, Cults and Vaccinations

by OrphanCrow in

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-rushes-to-vaccinate-against-measles-in-joliette-1.2991904.

a member of the esprit-saint mission told cbc news reporter thomas daigle that vaccinations are against the community's beliefs and that their prophet warns them vaccines result in illness.

the member confirmed the first cases of measles in the region originated with the community.the esprit-saint eugenics group was founded by eugene richer dit lafleche in 1913. the community purports to live by and work toward spreading the message of the third member of the trinity, the holy spirit.a former member of the community said it believes vaccines compromise people's immune systems, and that they feel protected by the spirit of dit la fleche, who died in 1925.public health officials said wednesday they believe the number of infections will continue to climb.. this article sounded interesting - i was reminded of how similar this cult's views on vaccinations are to the jws view, especially back in the 1920s to the 1950s.

Viviane

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/63650002/please-vaccinate-your-children?size=20&page=1

That is all.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Viviane

Your logic seems irrefutable except that it contains an apparent intrinsic flaw: Why should God (4 intrinsic attributes) cause pain and suffering before a fall.

Why would he after a fall? Why would he NOT include it before a fall? If God is perfectly loving, why does he punish creatures that had absolutely nothing to do with the fall? In what sense could that ever be described as perfectly loving?