Posts by Viviane

13

Confusion over the parable of the prodigal son

by economy in

though parable of prodigal son is superlative in quality as it graphically picturizes the scientific law of cause and consequence, its conclusion defames god.

when the prodigal son returned repentant, his father showed his delight saying: let us celebrate this by killing a fattened calf.

(luke 15:23) such a concept (let us rejoice by giving maximum pain to another innocent living being) seems to be interpolation for the following reason:.

Viviane

Apparently because you gotta kill it before you can grill it.

114

Why do religious people make claims and then refuse to back them up?

by Viviane in

several times over the past few months i have had conversations, both here and in real life, with religious people making all sorts of interesting and conflicting claims.

i like to know how things work, so generally i will ask questions to net out what i am being told and see if it can be explained and make sense.. for instance, if someone said 2+2=4 and i asked how, there are a variety of ways that could be shown to me, a number line, physical objects being put together, counting on fingers and toes, etc.

indeed, in my personal life, i often have to explain how certain technologies work, sometimes planned, sometimes off the cuff, from a variety of group sizes to a varying degree of technical expertise.

Viviane

One venerable old JW lady that I admit I gave a real hard time to, what I might now term a "Viviane" time, having seen you in action, she admitted to me in the end that her devotion did not depend upon facts, reason or indeed Truth, it was purely based upon emotion.

Is "Viviane time" a good or bad thing? So, on this forum I often have religious discussions, in real life, only if someone brings it up to me. Given that I live in the bible belt, that happens somewhat frequently.

If someone wants to believe and admits there are no facts behind it, that's fine.

It's unfortunate but it is also a reality that there are many people who do not have the ability to reason logically, nor correlate a series of ideas. However, they do have the capacity to feel, imagine and believe. For these types of people we must show both empathy and sympathy. Leave them be.

But... they do! They can count money, drive a car, make plans, etc.. Some of them are even engineers! As I said, I never bring it up first, so it's really up to them to keep it to themselves.

I think that a lot of JWs feel that the claims can be backed up, but that they personally are unable to back them up.They probably think that a GB member or a Bethelite or a CO or a super elder could back them up. JWs of this particular type think that JW higher-ups are so much smarter than they are that they just accept what these higher-ups say and assume the higher-ups can back up what they say.

That is true. When I was in the process of expressing my concerns, they kept trying to get someone smarter to talk to me, ending with a CO. They eventually told me I was too smart to be a JW.

As to why they won't admit they don't know... well, I don't know. I think it's a combination of stupidity, stubbornness, and pride. Also, I think it's fear. They might have some nagging doubts that they suppress. They are terrified of the implications of these doubts, so they keep them locked away. To admit they don't know might, to them, be sort of like letting their doubts out.

I don't know either, but what you are saying makes sense.

Classic JW use of argumentum ad hominem. They attack their opponent rather than address his argument or question.

Yeah, it's a last resort, an attempt to explain why they don't or shouldn't have to answer. It's basically running away with their tail between their legs.

114

Why do religious people make claims and then refuse to back them up?

by Viviane in

several times over the past few months i have had conversations, both here and in real life, with religious people making all sorts of interesting and conflicting claims.

i like to know how things work, so generally i will ask questions to net out what i am being told and see if it can be explained and make sense.. for instance, if someone said 2+2=4 and i asked how, there are a variety of ways that could be shown to me, a number line, physical objects being put together, counting on fingers and toes, etc.

indeed, in my personal life, i often have to explain how certain technologies work, sometimes planned, sometimes off the cuff, from a variety of group sizes to a varying degree of technical expertise.

Viviane

Several times over the past few months I have had conversations, both here and in real life, with religious people making all sorts of interesting and conflicting claims. I like to know how things work, so generally I will ask questions to net out what I am being told and see if it can be explained and make sense.

For instance, if someone said 2+2=4 and I asked how, there are a variety of ways that could be shown to me, a number line, physical objects being put together, counting on fingers and toes, etc. Indeed, in my personal life, I often have to explain how certain technologies work, sometimes planned, sometimes off the cuff, from a variety of group sizes to a varying degree of technical expertise.

I have to back up what I say, either by showing the group how something works or explaining it in detail. There is nothing wrong with, when asked a question, saying "I'm not sure" or "I don't know that" or "That's not my field of expertise". It's usually followed up with "However, I can and will go find out for you and get back OR I will find out who can do that and bring them into the conversation."

With religion, the spiritual, etc., it seems that is never the case. For instance, I started a thread asking what spirit is made of since it gets brought up so often. No one could tell me.

I am told how to communicate with God but, when asked how the works, the person telling us does everything they can to prevaricate, change the subject, pretend they've answered, etc.

Just last night I was told that I am dead and unable to understand anything even if they were to tell me, which they proceeded not to do. That particular question was around prophecy, someone claiming it had been fulfilled and then being completely unable answer which prophecy or what it said.

I cannot imagine putting myself in a position to make claims and then be completely unable to answer even basic questions about that claim. It would be humiliating, frankly, to pretend to know something and then get caught not knowing anything. Even once would be bad, but multiple times? I shudder at the idea!

Why can't religious people simply say "I don't know"? What is wrong with that level of honesty? Why all the claims to know stuff and, when caught NOT knowing any of that stuff, the insults, the subject changing, the pretend answers?

I simply don't get it.

24

The desert god is a real A hole in this weeks bible reading

by _Morpheus in

so this week dubbies read that the mean bad philistines were punished by the desert god for having his ark.

the desert god punished them with (drum roll please)....... hemroids and rats.

yep.

Viviane

I imagine the author was choosing between this explanation and "BECAUSE REASONS!".

Exactly!

Clearly it dosent pay to be on the desert gods team.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/israelites-sue-god-for-breach-of-covenant,423/

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Viviane

I suppose because it goes against the conventional teachings of Christianity, which to be honest, i'm feeling more and more alienated with (pardon the pun)

But, why not aliens, then? Why this specific one?

I think we all know in our heart of hearts what "good" actually is. Helping the poor, not commiting violence towards our fellow man (and animal for that matter). I'm not talking about religion either, more of a set of values.

Then why is there so much disagreement over it? Sometimes it IS appropriate to commit violence. What if there is disagreement over the distribution of resources? What if everyone doesn't agree that the way you think it should be is "good"? Or what if people don't like the jobs they get and think it's unfair and not good?

Well, i did state that i believed in evolution....Evolution and atheism are completely different.

I never said they were. I am pointing out that proof of evolution is there. It's not "evidence" as if it might not be real.

I beg to differ. No one knows what occurred before the big bang. We can speculate, but no one, as you put it, has solid proof and evidence on what was before the big bang.

That's literally what "no evidence for" means. You can't say there is evidence for God because we have no information or evidence. It actually and literally makes absolutely no sense.

There is NO evidence for god or a higher power.

61

KH 1st timer, could use some advice

by rathernotsay in

jw
friends

hey people, .

i am soon going into a kh for the first time and i could use some advice around etiquette etc.

i know next to nothing besides the fundamental beliefs of jws, i personally dont believe in any religion, and that stance isnt ever going to change, however i don't want to come across as rude or disrespectful.

Viviane

Slam that wine like it's going out of style. And bring some salami and cheese for the crackers.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Viviane

Because i still want to believe in something more, i want to think that this isn't all there is. I think it's a pretty good halfway point for me to think that evolution did occur, but there was something that orchestrated it. Something put into the very fabric of cells that enable them to evolve even today.

OK, but why THIS specific belief with re-incarnation? Why this deism for which there is no evidence? Why not aliens?

If the "reward" for good deeds and a selfless attitude was there, and everyone believed it, there would be no wars, a lot less hungry, and equality for all

So everyone would have to define "good" in the same way and all agree at all times on what "good" means. Also, since when has religion ever stopped wars, wiped out hunger or created equality?

On one hand you have "evidence" saying evolution happened; but that does not mean that there wasn't something that set the whole process in motion.

No, there isn't "evidence" for evolution, there is simply evidence and proof. Evolution happened, happens and will happen.

In the same vane, there is no solid evidence saying there is "higher power" behind it all, although i am willing to accept that this could be the case.

No, not in the same vein. There is TONS of evidence and proof for evolution. It is a FACT. There is ZERO evidence for any higher power of any sort.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Viviane

Looks like you still got that judgmental JW mindset. I clearly stated this is my belief right now, but am open to any other theories.

Looks like you've no idea what you're talking about. Please explain how asking questions about your belief, which you decided to publicly post on a religious discussion forum, is being judgmental? Please explain how pointing out obvious holes, which you admit exists, in your beliefs, is being judgmental?

Please explain why you decided, when you are unable to answer even the most basic questions about your belief, which you decided to bring up, is a reason for you to begin insulting people willing to have a discussion with you.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Viviane

Today, he is watching and observing, but at the begining of life/creation he set the rules where things can evolve.
There is no evidence, as he never steps in. No miracles, no divine intervention.

Why do you believe this if there is no evidence for it?

I think that this conclusion, to me anyway, helps me to be a better person, and if everyone followed this way of life we would have peace love and eternal happiness.

Why would everyone be better if they believed this? Why should anyone believe this with no evidence?

I agree, my theory or belief has cracks in it, but my journey seperate to JW beliefs has taken me down this path.

It simply has zero evidence of any kind and no way to get evidence. It's not a crack or hole, it's lacking any substance to have a crack in it.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

Viviane

My theory (or belief) is that there is a God or entity that we cannot comprehend, that is just watching and observing.
Evolution did occur, but it was orchestrated by this unknown entity we call God.

So, was this incomprehensible entity just watching and observing or actively orchestrating evolution (because it still happens today, meaning he is still actively doing stuff).

What evidence is there for this entity?

If we do not do good deeds, and have hate in our heart, we begin the process again, same soul, different body, but with no recollection on our previous life/life's. This process can be infinite, until we dig deep into our present consciousness, and understand the real meaning of Jesus words.

Why do you think that is the case?