It all is about faith. If one does not believe or have faith, then whatever one writes about the bible makes no sense to that person.
Actually, it's precisely when faith is invoked that all sense goes out the window.
Viviane
JoinedPosts by Viviane
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43
Jesus Saves From What? March 2015 Watchtower Article
by Perry ini just skimmed the titled article on jw.org and once again the watchtower is misdirecting:.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20150301/jesus-death-and-resurrection/ .
they try and make the old case that jesus saves us from being destroyed at armageddon.
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Viviane
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43
Jesus Saves From What? March 2015 Watchtower Article
by Perry ini just skimmed the titled article on jw.org and once again the watchtower is misdirecting:.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20150301/jesus-death-and-resurrection/ .
they try and make the old case that jesus saves us from being destroyed at armageddon.
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Viviane
I could be wrong it that's it seems to me.
You are.
We're living in 2015 not in the dark ages. the inquisitions have nothing to do with Christians in 2015.
Well, yes, it does. Without the death and blood and slavery and rape and genocide, you don't get Christianity as it exists today. That suffering it part of and core to the Christian belief system.
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A couple questions for atheists on Suffering
by little_Socrates inwho told you that the world should be free from suffering?.
do you find any value in suffering?.
do you think it is possible to experience all the beauty and goodness and pleasure the world offers without also experiencing the bad?
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Viviane
viv - any rape is a terrible crime - child rape is the worst form of exploitation. On the other hand a child who has been raped is not worthless and used up although they may feel that way are they?
You said there is value in suffering. I am asking you if there is value in child rape. Why are you refusing to answer whether or not rape, a form or sufering, has value?
I am saying the opposite which to never suffer exploitation quietly.
That's not the opposite because you've not answered the question yet.
You said suffering has value. Does child rape, which if suffering, have value? If so, does more suffering mean more value?
You're going out of your way to answer questions no one is asking. Why can't you answer the questions you are asked?
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A couple questions for atheists on Suffering
by little_Socrates inwho told you that the world should be free from suffering?.
do you find any value in suffering?.
do you think it is possible to experience all the beauty and goodness and pleasure the world offers without also experiencing the bad?
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Viviane
viv - please see my previous post, copied and pasted here for you as what you are describing is suffering that is made by human exploitation then dismissed
Yeah, that post was all over the place and didn't answer anything.
A simple yes or no, please. Is there value is child rape?
As a follow up question, if there is value is suffering, then please explain why more suffering doesn't equal more value. In other words, if suffering has value, then it follows that more suffering should mean more value, so why shouldn't there be maximum suffering all of the time?
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102
A couple questions for atheists on Suffering
by little_Socrates inwho told you that the world should be free from suffering?.
do you find any value in suffering?.
do you think it is possible to experience all the beauty and goodness and pleasure the world offers without also experiencing the bad?
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Viviane
I am saying that there is value in suffering in that it is those who suffer and those who empathize with them who fight hardest for change.
Wait, so let's use an example here. You're saying that there is value in, say, child sex trafficking because it could stop some child sex trafficking later? You're saying that rape is OK because people might try harder to stop future rape?
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Why do religious people make claims and then refuse to back them up?
by Viviane inseveral times over the past few months i have had conversations, both here and in real life, with religious people making all sorts of interesting and conflicting claims.
i like to know how things work, so generally i will ask questions to net out what i am being told and see if it can be explained and make sense.. for instance, if someone said 2+2=4 and i asked how, there are a variety of ways that could be shown to me, a number line, physical objects being put together, counting on fingers and toes, etc.
indeed, in my personal life, i often have to explain how certain technologies work, sometimes planned, sometimes off the cuff, from a variety of group sizes to a varying degree of technical expertise.
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Viviane
????
!!!!
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114
Why do religious people make claims and then refuse to back them up?
by Viviane inseveral times over the past few months i have had conversations, both here and in real life, with religious people making all sorts of interesting and conflicting claims.
i like to know how things work, so generally i will ask questions to net out what i am being told and see if it can be explained and make sense.. for instance, if someone said 2+2=4 and i asked how, there are a variety of ways that could be shown to me, a number line, physical objects being put together, counting on fingers and toes, etc.
indeed, in my personal life, i often have to explain how certain technologies work, sometimes planned, sometimes off the cuff, from a variety of group sizes to a varying degree of technical expertise.
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Viviane
Who are we to disagree?
Just because we don't agree, and it doesn't make sense to us (and maybe not even to them), it is their choice.
Life is much better spent with a smile on our face and with a happy heart rather than being in turmoil over the choices of others. If they want to live a different lifestyle, they'll decide to do it when they are ready...just like we did.So you're cool with letting children die because of religion? You're cool with Mormon cults that do child marriage? You're cool with beheadings that fundamentalist Muslims believe it is their holy duty to perform?
After all, it's not hurting you, right?
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114
Why do religious people make claims and then refuse to back them up?
by Viviane inseveral times over the past few months i have had conversations, both here and in real life, with religious people making all sorts of interesting and conflicting claims.
i like to know how things work, so generally i will ask questions to net out what i am being told and see if it can be explained and make sense.. for instance, if someone said 2+2=4 and i asked how, there are a variety of ways that could be shown to me, a number line, physical objects being put together, counting on fingers and toes, etc.
indeed, in my personal life, i often have to explain how certain technologies work, sometimes planned, sometimes off the cuff, from a variety of group sizes to a varying degree of technical expertise.
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Viviane
This is a nice way of saying they are stupid. Even so, "an astoundingly poor use of those skills" may be their choice and not a mental ailment. I argue that it is their choice.
My words don't belong to you and you don't get to pretend they mean something so you can falsely change them to make whatever point you are attempting.
When you decide to make a point without being dishonest about what I said, then you are welcome to discuss this again.
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114
Why do religious people make claims and then refuse to back them up?
by Viviane inseveral times over the past few months i have had conversations, both here and in real life, with religious people making all sorts of interesting and conflicting claims.
i like to know how things work, so generally i will ask questions to net out what i am being told and see if it can be explained and make sense.. for instance, if someone said 2+2=4 and i asked how, there are a variety of ways that could be shown to me, a number line, physical objects being put together, counting on fingers and toes, etc.
indeed, in my personal life, i often have to explain how certain technologies work, sometimes planned, sometimes off the cuff, from a variety of group sizes to a varying degree of technical expertise.
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Viviane
Viviane and all the other religious faith haters
Well, you start out 100% wrong. I don't hate religious faith. It's more like falafel to me. I don't hate it, I just have never tried any I like. Everyone tells me it's delicious, but I've no use for it in any way.
Why all the hostility, why do you have so much angst for people of faith?
You've never seen me hostile, so you really are speaking of things you don't understand. Perhaps you mistake an open and honest discussion about ideas where BS woo answers that make no sense aren't accepted and an easy pass for hostility against people?
Also, realize that even in the world of science and medicine, there are unknowns, and have been miscalculations and error. Does it make them ignorant because of that, or any less intelligent for putting forth something that was understood at the time to be correct but now after refinements and increased knowledge the answers or solutions have been modified.
So, you clearly don't know how science works. Science is based upon NOT knowing everying. "I don't know" is the driving force behind all of science. Science and scientist don't claim to have the answers, they claim to have the highest state of knowledge of how things work that is currently possible and know, hope, even, for better knowledge to come along. You have science 100% backwards.
Why can't scientific people simply say "I don't know"? What is wrong with that level of honesty?
That, in fact, is the driving force behind science. We don't know things, so they keep looking. We know some things we think aren't right, so we keep looking. You COMPLETELY get science backwards.
Look, I apologize, I am being really sarcastic to make a point, and I do understand what you’re conveying, but please do not categorize all theologians or religious persons of faith as unreasoned or illogical, and for the smart ass that wants to argue faith and reason is mutually exclusive, do not waste your time.
No need to apologize. You *think* you are being sarcastic but that's only because you have everything you said backwards.
All and all, there are many viewpoints to each side, I make no claim to having the correct side, but I do get to form my own conclusions without prejudice or fear of malice.
Absolutely. Should, however, you choose to bring those conclusions up in a public forum, they will be treated as any other irrational idea. One side has evidence, the other side has people that get upset when their continual claims prove false.
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114
Why do religious people make claims and then refuse to back them up?
by Viviane inseveral times over the past few months i have had conversations, both here and in real life, with religious people making all sorts of interesting and conflicting claims.
i like to know how things work, so generally i will ask questions to net out what i am being told and see if it can be explained and make sense.. for instance, if someone said 2+2=4 and i asked how, there are a variety of ways that could be shown to me, a number line, physical objects being put together, counting on fingers and toes, etc.
indeed, in my personal life, i often have to explain how certain technologies work, sometimes planned, sometimes off the cuff, from a variety of group sizes to a varying degree of technical expertise.
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Viviane
I'm not claiming any of the items you mentioned here. So I can understand why you don't buy it.
Then I don't understand what your point is. Mine is that they clearly have some reasoning and logic skills, then demonstrate astoundingly poor use of those skills.