Off to an Easter party now, I'll get back to this tomorrow. Good debate though.
It's not a debate! You've made a lot of claims that don't hold up under even minimal scrutiny.
Have fun at your party!
Viviane
JoinedPosts by Viviane
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53
Some Questions About Jesus
by Coded Logic inwhy didn't jesus ever write anything?
why are there no letters to jesus?
no painting of jesus from that time?
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Viviane
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53
Some Questions About Jesus
by Coded Logic inwhy didn't jesus ever write anything?
why are there no letters to jesus?
no painting of jesus from that time?
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Viviane
This is all about a historical Jesus
I've not debated whether a man named Jesus existed. In fact, many did and that is quite well established. It was a rather common name.
not about the accuracy of the bible as we have it today.
It's well established it is NOT accurate.
As for who killed him, the Romans may have carried out the deed, but it was the Sanhedrin who ordered it.
According to the Bible they ASKED for it. Big big difference. The Sanhedrin didn't have the ability to order the Romans to do anything and that IS a historical fact.
Unless you can find any historical documents talking about a man like Jesus that ALL jews embraced and that none of them were calling for him to be put to death, but that the Romans themselves did this, then it stands it really was the Jews responsible for it.
Sorry, that's not how it works. It's a fact that, according to the Bible, the Romans killed Jesus, that it was their decision. There no actual historical documents about a man like Jesus at all, and the quasi-semi-historical documents we do have is clear that the Jews asked and the Romans agreed and did the deed.
Even the ancient contemporary scholars as my previous posts show they believed that as well.
You've not quoted any scholars, but rather religious texts promoting a clearly false and contradictory point of view.
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53
Some Questions About Jesus
by Coded Logic inwhy didn't jesus ever write anything?
why are there no letters to jesus?
no painting of jesus from that time?
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Viviane
I fixed crucified before you had replied, but yes he said murdered
He said executed, actually.
Now as for the Romans killing him, the Romans were an instrument.
The Romans killed him.
Who called for this death?
Pontius Pilate, the only Roman at the time and place that could.
IF the 'wise king' who the Jews murdered, then their city was ABOLISHED shortly after
The text says "kingdom was abolished", NOT "city". Jews had no kingdom at the time Jesus was killed, nor was he ever king.
Mara is asserting that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD happened not too long after the murder of the Wise King of the Jews.
Mara never once said any such thing. You are literally making that up.
As he did disasters that befell those who killed Socrates. So if it's not Jesus, who else fits the bill?
An actual king who was executed and whose kingdom was shortly thereafter abolished. None of those match Jesus.
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Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)
by Simon insickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".
"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?
you're fired!"..
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Viviane
I think this is the only and first comment of yours I've ever liked and laughed at haha. Nice find.
No one is perfect.
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53
Some Questions About Jesus
by Coded Logic inwhy didn't jesus ever write anything?
why are there no letters to jesus?
no painting of jesus from that time?
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Viviane
Not talking about Jesus? Who is the man he says they worship? Who is the distinguished personage who introducted their rites and was crucified? Who was their original lawgiver?
Just because I mock Juggalos doesn't mean I've once mentioned ICP. Similarly, that text mocks Christians and doesn't say Jesus once.
He said, "Their Wise King". Not "a" Wise King. The sign on Jesus cross said, "King of the Jews". Tell me another historical figure that non Jews place among names such as Socrates that the Jews had crucified and could be considered a wise king?
First, he never said "crucified", so attempting to associate "crucified" with "executed" is disingenuous at best. Secondly, Jesus was crucified by the Romans, not Jews. Third, he NEVER mentions Jesus. You saying he does is completely untrue.
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53
Some Questions About Jesus
by Coded Logic inwhy didn't jesus ever write anything?
why are there no letters to jesus?
no painting of jesus from that time?
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Viviane
Really? Which of the jews wise king did they murder then?
Really. He never says which one he is thinking of.
What did the sign post on Jesus cross say? John 19:19 if you forgot.
It certainly doesn't say "Wise King". Jesus never WAS king, in any event.
Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King”:
He refers to A wise king but never names him or otherwise indicates he in talking about Jesus. Your claim is 100% untrue.
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53
Some Questions About Jesus
by Coded Logic inwhy didn't jesus ever write anything?
why are there no letters to jesus?
no painting of jesus from that time?
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Viviane
The Babylonian Talmud 43a IS talking about the Jesus of the bible. Remember the Pharasees accused him of in Matt 12:24-27?
I didn't it wasn't talking about the same guy, I said it doesn't describe him. For instance, it says he had five disciples, contrary to the Bible. It says he was stoned and then hung, contrary to the Bible. It says he was held while they called for witnesses and waited forty days, contrary to the Bible. The names of his disciples are not those found the Bible. He was killed by the Sanhedrin, not the Romans, contrary to the Bible. He was killed for religious crimes, not the the crime of sedition as recorded in the Bible.
So, the ONLY similarities are Jesus, Jewish and some disciples. More details, major details, differ than agree. Maybe it is talking about the same man, but it is certainly largely disagreeing with the Bible on most major points.
As I said, it's describing something wholly different from Biblical Jesus.
Same for 107b, these sources are showing how those who killed Jesus viewed him. Now what you must ask yourself is why aren't they denying such a man ever existed?
107b describes a Jesus that was a disciple of Jesus b. Perachiah, was sent away for mis-translating a text and for thinking about a woman too much and who later turned to idolatry, worshiping fish.
That's not the Jesus of the Bible by any means.
Here are more...
If you are going to steal from Wikipedia, at least have the decency to credit them.
- Jesus as the son of Mary (Shab 104b, Sanh 67a)
I am not going to address the entire list, but this one is laughable. There is nothing in the Talmud that says Jesus mother is Mary. It DOES mention someone NOT Joseph as his father and somewhere else mention Mary is that man's lover. That's it.
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The mathematical probability of spontaneous order (no designer/creator)
by Fernando inthere seem to be many prerequisites for life as we know it.. to name a few: order, function, compatibility, availability, sustainability, intelligence, consciousness, intuition and so on.. focusing on only one, namely order.. what are the chances of order arising spontaneously, by chance, with no creator/designer?.
i have often pondered this and recently came across a mathematical summary of the big picture:.
if every particle in the known physical universe (10^80 particles), participated in one trillion interactions (10^12 interactions) per second, for the entire 30 billion years of the universe's existence (10^18 seconds), then we would by now have covered only 10^110 permutations.. if you had only 100 components in a container, what are the chances that a blindfolded person could lay them out in order on a table?.
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Viviane
How about time being the radius dimension through which the balloon membrane we live in expands? In our formulae, graphs, tme is always at right angles, -normal- to the space dimension. With time a given, the dimension dilemma becomes manageable.
Time and space are the same thing so... no.
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53
Some Questions About Jesus
by Coded Logic inwhy didn't jesus ever write anything?
why are there no letters to jesus?
no painting of jesus from that time?
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Viviane
Babylonian Talmud 43a
That doesn't describe the Jesus of the Bible.
Sanhedrin 107b
Sanhedrin 107b has this to say of Jesus, "Sanhedrin 107[70] tells of a Jesus ("Yeshu") "offended his teacher by paying too much attention to the inn-keeper's wife. Jesus wished to be forgiven, but [his rabbi] was too slow to forgive him, and Jesus in despair went away and put up a brick [idol] and worshipped it.""
Jesus leering at an innkeepers wife and then practicing idolatry? You sure that's the Jesus of the Bible?
“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)
That's talking about an earthquake and eclipse, not Jesus.
In his “Annals’ of 116AD, he describes Emperor Nero’s response to the great fire in Rome and Nero’s claim that the Christians were to blame:
Talking about Christians, not Jesus.
Mara Bar-Serapion
He never mentioned Jesus.
Lucian was a Greek satirist who spoke sarcastically of Christ and Christians
Mocking Christians...not talking about Jesus.
Josephus writes about Jesus in his “the Antiquities of the Jews” in 93AD.
That is know to have been at LEAST altered and only MAY have been an actual expansion of something he could have actually written.
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53
Some Questions About Jesus
by Coded Logic inwhy didn't jesus ever write anything?
why are there no letters to jesus?
no painting of jesus from that time?
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Viviane
Jesus was almost certainly illiterate, hence maybe why he never wrote anything.