Viviane

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Posts by Viviane

• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  Now THIS is the most interesting thing posted on this thread in the last 8 pages!!!

  
  
• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  Viviane, I really don't understand what you're trying to do here. Are you trying to debunk any god I may throw at you? Don't even go there, I will agree with you. What's your point?

  You said lack of evidence leads to lack of knowledge, specifically under the auspices of a discussion around atheism and your attempts to claim it is a belief.

  So, using your god, is there any way to gather evidence about it? I need you to define it so I can tell if there is anyway possible to gather evidence or determine if it is possible to gather evidence and whether or not it is even possible to know anything about such a creature.
• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  So, now what?

  So, define it, not tell me a story.

  If lack of evidence leads to lack of knowledge, define this god's properties so I can tell whether or not there is evidence for it.
• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  Not so, I didn't name any authority. Just curious to know as to why your opinion is more credible than that of Mr. Cline. Because you say so?

  Oh sweet baby Jesus this is getting ridiculous.

  Yes. You did. You describes your source as "official". When pointed out to you that was untrue, you attempted to fall back and question if anyone was more credible. That's an appeal to authority. Twice.

  It is you now who pretend to know what I think and what I do and don't understand. I can understand all the nuances, but I'm trying to figure out why your definition is the 'agreed upon definition' and Mr. Cline's definition isn't.

  Well, then it's very odd that you keep using the term so incorrectly. Again, are you trolling your own thread?

  I don't presume or pretend anything (except when it's role playing/dress up night. Let the reader use discernment on whether that RPG MMO or something... else) because you personally have attempted to conflate different positions into one. Either you are trolling your own thread, deliberately misstating it or you don't understand.

  Why in the world would I need to pretend you don't understand something when I can simply quote you and show it (as I've done many times).
• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  This may not be everyone's reason for responding to Eden, but for me it was about trying to reason with him/her.

  Mine, personally, is the hope that people like Eden can learn and also to serve as an example to others that could potentially fall prey to such bad reasoning, how easy it is to deconstruct and how to spot holes in logic and arguments that could be used to in other ways to negatively influence them.

  Basically, to show them a good example of critical thinking and how to apply it.

  It's also just good practice.
• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  For the sake of argument, let's assume a monotheistic god akin to the Christian god, minus the whole god-became-man part. Let's call it Spanx, the Almighty. I wonder where do you want to take the discussion from there.

  OK. Now define it.
• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  Why then should your authority be more credible than that of Mr. Cline? Just curious about credentials.
  

  Ah, the appeal to authority. The last gasp of a failed argument.

  Seems to me that there's confusion in the atheist side of the fence.

  Since you can't seem to grasp the nuances of the terms and how it's applied, I am not surprised at your confusion.
• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  It was you who so insisted that we stick to 'agreed upon definitions'. That definition comes from an official page on atheism. What more can I say?

  Official? Which official certified that? And yes, I did. No one but you is agreeing that is the definition. In fact, you've been told multiple times what the problems with it are. That you found a website that agrees with your mistake is irrelevant.

  And "Sorry..." would be a good start.
• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  The traits I gave apply to both monotheist god or polytheist gods

  To some deities. Others had wholly different traits altogether and thus would require an entirely new set of definitions and traits.

  You could always say "For purposes of this discussion I choose Thor, and here are his traits and he is defined as ..." and replace the ellipses with the definition of those so we could determine whether or not there was evidence of him and whether or not we are lacking knowledge of this thing.

  And still, why do I have to define?

  Because you are the one who is trying to make claims about knowledge. You cannot claim we lack knowledge of a thing unless you can tell us what that thing is, how we could possibly determine if we lack knowledge of it or even if it exists to determine whether or not there is a thing we lack knowledge of.

  Since expressed a wish to learn, this is a good lesson and example of building your argument. When constructing an argument for a debate, anything you wish to assert you have to have developed or borrowed (with proper accreditation, of course) and state that is what you are using for the purposes of your argument and debate. You also have to have developed any underlying arguments needed to support your position and have thought through any objections you may encounter to determine if they are valid or not, all without becoming emotionally involved with your position and argument.

  This is why students have to defend their thesis and why in business, we have something called a rude Q&A, where we build an argument or position in just such a way and have friendly experts in the subject attempt to tear down our argument so we can find out where it may be weak or collapse, whether or not it is even valid.
• 
  233

  What is BELIEF ?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

  what exactly is "belief"?.

  is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  Atheism is a position about belief, while agnosticism is a position about knowledge.

  As usual, you demonstrate you understand neither.

  Extracted from atheism.about.com
  .. you're welcome.

  And you're back to trying to speak for other people even though you said you wouldn't. Both concept cover a wide variety of positions, you cannot hide your bad logic, platitudes, mistaken ideas and incorrect statements about others behind a blurb from a website that caters to your own misunderstanding by committing one of it's own, specifically that of conflating multiple ideas and a variety of concepts under a single phrase which gets none of them right.

  Thank you for posting that, it aptly demonstrates the need to be clear in debate that I was mentioning to your earlier in the learning session.