Posts by Viviane

14

The Kingdom of God -- Simplified Suggestion

by FusionTheism in

depending on the context, the phrase "kingdom of god" can have a few different simplified meanings:.

1: the authority of god manifesting itself through miracles, love, or judgment.. 2: the authority of god in people's lives.. 3: the lord jesus, the 12 apostles, and others who will sit on thrones and wear crowns in the new heavens and the new earth.. 4: the 1,000 year reign of christ on earth (if that is literal instead of symbolic).. 5: (in the old testament:) the nation of israel under godly kings such as david or josiah.. there are a few passages of scripture i can think of which could support the idea that the kingdom is made up of those who rule in heaven, as opposed to those who live on earth.

these are matthew 11:11-13, john 3:13, 31, acts 2:34. delving into those scriptures will be the subject of a future post.. as always, the immediate context of a passage, and the context of that particular book as a whole, helps determine the meaning of the phrase..

Viviane

Basically those are symbolic or anthropomorphic ways of attempting to express truths about the invisible spirit realm.

But what is the spirit realm? What is spirit? What is it made of? Is it something physical that a crown that sit on? If not, how will they wear crowns or sit on a chair? How can we tell if something made of spirit is near us? Can we detect it? If not, why not?

My best guess on "New Heavens" would be because Revelation says Satan and the demons are vanished from the Heavens, so now they are "made new."

Someone you don't like leaving your house doesn't mean your house is "made new". Is that purely symbolic? If so, is it simply a feeling? How can spirit creatures have feeling since feelings are a chemical reaction in physical body? Does that mean spirit creatures are physical? If so, why can't we detect them? If not, how can they interact with us?

My best guess on "New Heavens" would be because Revelation says Satan and the demons are vanished from the Heavens, so now they are "made new."

But that's not what the Bible says. It says they will wear crowns. Are you disagreeing with the Bible? Are you telling us that it's poetic? If so, how do you know? Do you have special knowledge unavailable to the rest of us? Have you been gifted from God with the the ability to tell us what is symbolic or not? If so, how can you prove this to us? Do we just have to trust you? Can you demonstrate those abilities? If you don't have those abilities gifted from God, why should we trust you? If you do disagree with the Bible, are you saying it's wrong?

So many questions... I look forward to your answers.

14

The Kingdom of God -- Simplified Suggestion

by FusionTheism in

depending on the context, the phrase "kingdom of god" can have a few different simplified meanings:.

1: the authority of god manifesting itself through miracles, love, or judgment.. 2: the authority of god in people's lives.. 3: the lord jesus, the 12 apostles, and others who will sit on thrones and wear crowns in the new heavens and the new earth.. 4: the 1,000 year reign of christ on earth (if that is literal instead of symbolic).. 5: (in the old testament:) the nation of israel under godly kings such as david or josiah.. there are a few passages of scripture i can think of which could support the idea that the kingdom is made up of those who rule in heaven, as opposed to those who live on earth.

these are matthew 11:11-13, john 3:13, 31, acts 2:34. delving into those scriptures will be the subject of a future post.. as always, the immediate context of a passage, and the context of that particular book as a whole, helps determine the meaning of the phrase..

Viviane

What is the new heavens? What is wrong with the old heavens? If they are spirit, how to they wear crowns? What is the spirit made of? the crowns? How do we determine what is a miracle? God's judgement?

So many questions...I look forward to your answers.

11

The Duggar family hypocrisy

by Simon in

another christian child-abuse scandal in the news is the duggar family of "19 kids and counting" fame.. their show has been pulled after it emerged that the uber-christian family who are seen to promote right-wing christian values covered up abuse within their family and that of other victims by one of their family.

some values.

once again the only value that seems to really matter to the religious is appearance... good riddance to hypocritical zealots.. they have campaigned against lgbt as being threats to children and describing them as sexual predators all the while knowing that they have their own dirty secret.

Viviane

Yeah. Anytime some religious nut get's on a soapbox about something you can pretty much guarantee that they are up to their necks in whatever it is they want to chastise everyone else about.
All they really care about is self-image of themselves and their religion. Actual welfare of children? Not so much.
Religion in a convenient enabling mechanism for abusers.

My only comment on that entire post is "Spot on, sir." (although it seems from the news they're more likely balls deep into whatever they are complaining about).

40

Spiritual AMNESTY -- Return to Jehovah

by FusionTheism in

basically, from what i can tell from the new return to jehovah brochure, is that the governing body is now offering amnesty to anyone who has been gone from the congregation but now wants to return.. it claims it doesn't matter what sins you've done, or what caused you to leave, if you repent to jehovah and ask the elders to help you, and return to the meetings, you'll be warmly welcomed with no disciplinary action or judgment against you..

Viviane

Does anyone on this site actually follow what the Home Page says about "friendly and tolerant?" Just curious?

Are you asking if you are just curious? No one can answer that but you.

However, "friendly" doesn't mean not disagreeing with you, not telling you that you are wrong, agreeing with what you say, not challenging you or your comments, not thinking your positions are abhorrent, etc.

Same for "tolerant". You've not been banned, prevented from speaking or had any consequences imposed on your life.

What exactly are you expecting that you aren't getting?

27

To My Generation: Jehovah's Witnesses of the Vietnam War Era

by Hold Me-Thrill Me in

jw
friends

to my generation: jehovah's witnesses of the vietnam war era .

if you were a young brother in the late 60's you then remember the burden of the draft and the prospect of going to jail for refusing on religious grounds to be called up.

in those days we were taught that to do community service was conscientiously the same as joining the military and so we were told to refuse such exemptions.

Viviane

Then in the 1990's all of sudden we are told Jehovah had made a change. Brothers could now do community service and avoid jail.

The Vietnam was was over by the 90's and there hadn't been a draft since decades before.

I am not leaving Jehovah and his son. I am leaving the following of men. I was baptized not in the name of the Organization or of men. I am a follower of Jesus Christ who after the 2016 Memorial will be free to follow him alone.

You're free to do that now. Why will you participate in what you know to be a lie until then?

27

Assembly today, Survival Tips and Recommendations Please!

by Blackfalcon98 in

jw
friends

so there's an indoctrination session tomorrow......any tips for getting through with my sanity intact?

Viviane

Play music in your head, come up with ideas for sequels to your favorite movies, try to solve some riddles, figure out the answer to some paradoxes, think dirty thoughts, eat Indian food tonight so you need to spend most of the time in the restroom, come up with new lyrics for the songs, take a list of all of the errors they make...

Those are some of the things I used to do when I had to attend.

11

The Duggar family hypocrisy

by Simon in

another christian child-abuse scandal in the news is the duggar family of "19 kids and counting" fame.. their show has been pulled after it emerged that the uber-christian family who are seen to promote right-wing christian values covered up abuse within their family and that of other victims by one of their family.

some values.

once again the only value that seems to really matter to the religious is appearance... good riddance to hypocritical zealots.. they have campaigned against lgbt as being threats to children and describing them as sexual predators all the while knowing that they have their own dirty secret.

Viviane

That being said, was what they did for their son all that bad? Their teen aged son engaged in horrible behavior, he got found out, he got counseling.

They sent him to counseling that teaches God will reward you with extra faith and zeal for being abused, that abuse happens because the victim somehow invited it, that you can choose to not be abused sexually or have greater faith (guess which they say is better?) and that the fix for the physical abuse is to dedicate your body to God so you can cast out fear of marriage intimacy.

Oh, and at the counseling... the founder and leader of the "counseling center" resigned for having inappropriate relationships with over 30 teenagers, the state trooper (member of their church) who kept it quiet was put away for 50 years for child pornography, the brother's founder and one of the counselors at the center was outed for carrying on an affair with multiple secretaries for years and the head of the ministry at the center was let go for getting caught cheating on his wife.

Some group they got there.

Should they have called the police?

Fuck. Yes.

74

Is Prophecy important?

by EA916 in

hello, i am certainly new to all of this.

i have recently been studying the prophecy's, and i was wondering if they are of any importance at all?

Viviane

my pleasure. I'm not a fan of inerrancy and can only claim plausibility for my pov

Your claim is incorrect and utterly implausible.

88

Damned if they do, Damned if they don't

by FusionTheism in

jw
friends

i see an attitude among some people here which is not very helpful.

i can understand it, but still, it's not constructive or helpful.. if you condemn the society for not changing, but then you also condemn them when they do change in a positive way, what incentive or motive does that provide for the people at the society to ever want to change for the better?.

also, what does that attitude look like to current witnesses who are having doubts?.

Viviane

If you condemn the Society for NOT changing, but then you also condemn them when they DO change in a positive way, what incentive or motive does that provide for the people at the Society to ever want to change for the better?

First, you make an error of omission, specifically not explaining what is better. How is the new better than the old? What metric are you using to make that claim and how is it objectively verifiable to others? How does it substantially change the life of Jehovah's Witnesses and their families for the better?

Also, what does that attitude look like to current Witnesses who are having doubts?
It probably looks to them like the Society has been correct in the way they describe apostates as bitter complainers who are never happy with anything the Society does.

This is the fallacy of presumption combined with a strawman. You provide no reason for making the presumption of how other people would view things. You provide no evidence for it and proceed to set an argument that you can easily knock down while attempting to make it look as if you are addressing a real issue.

And when they recently have admitted to errors and say they've been wrong in big ways in the past, some accuse them of having some secret conspiracy theory motive behind it.
To the people with this attitude: What exactly is it that you WANT the Society to do?

This is the only real meat in your post. You finally address the issue, but not for the reasons it needs to be addressed.

The reason it needs to be addressed is that they advertise they have the truth. They advertise that God gives it to them. When they make predictions and claims because they commune with God and then reverse those claims and predictions, it creates a very real issue with credibility. Was God lying to them? Were they talking to someone other than God? Were they making it up?

These questions are all important because they are just making claims about the future, they are using the justification of talking to God that affects people lives, their family, their financial status, their social status. It's important because if anyone publicly disagrees with these predicitions and rule and, often quite correctly, points out the lack of Biblical support or outright disagreement them, heavy sanctions are applied that can, quite literally, ruin a persons life.

So, rather than avoid the actual issue and use fallacies to do it, perhaps you would be better served by meditation upon the deep things, partaking of the meat rather than the milk.

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Viviane

You are in agreement with the WT on that.

A lot of Christians, not just the WT, say that. They want to have their cake and eat it, too.