Viviane

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Posts by Viviane

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  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

  1. 
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  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  He won't say, Besty. It's a mystery.
• 
  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  Caliber, the frame analogy doesn't apply to Cofty since what some people have been doing it trying to change the picture. He's asking for an explanation for the picture, some people are trying to describe a different picture.
• 
  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  Flamegrilled, you were being critical. You talked about how you weren't allowed to do what you wanted to and then used loaded words like "not allowed to stray" and lazy.

  Why do think it's a contradiction? We know enough about fluid dynamics and engineering to make air travel the safest form of travel yet we are still learning more about engineering and fluid dynamics that could make it better. It's not a contradiction to say we know enough to draw a conclusion YET there is a CHANCE we may learn more because it's not sure there even IS more information. If decisions were made using that type of thinking, no decision would ever be made.

  My addendum three was not an addendum, it was a point I was making. It was simply pointing out the logic in waiting on ungraspable information to make a decision. It would be like giving me a menu half in English and half in ancient Hebrew. Even though I have it in my hand, I can't understand it so it can't possibly help in my decision on what to order.

  And, you're wrong about what I acknowledged. You asked if there was a possibility that there could be knowlege, not that there IS knowledge about this we don't have. Maybe that's why you think there is a paradox in what I wrote?

  In your pet analogy, to the pet, it's a mystery. I don't know you are going out of your way to avoid calling what you are describing by what it is.
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  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  Caliber, wouldn't the answer to get a complete picture be to simply put the frame down or move it around?
• 
  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  Flamegrilled, I didn't avoid anything, and it wasn't crude, it was just getting to the point instead of making a complicated argument to say "it's a mystery".

  So, before I answer your questions, I do find it really funny that earlier you were saying Cofty only allowed answers he liked and now you are trying to dictate how I answer a question.

  1) Yes. The logic is inescapable and there have been thousands of year and thousands of examples. It's no different that saying I've got enough information to conclude the sun will rise tomorrow.

  2) Yes, but if there are, then they would be utterly irrelevant since if we can't grasp it, those reasons are meaningless to us and could never play a part in any decision. It's no different than saying whether or not I have a ham or turkey sandwich tomorrow is going to be determined by whether or not a star 1000 light years away exploded last year as that information couldn't possibly ever have meaning in my lifetime since I would never see it. Something outside of the human capability to grasp cannot be relevant in decision making.

  3) If there IS some reason we know is there and can't grasp, it's a mystery. If we don't know it's there and couldn't grasp it anyway, it's not a mystery.
• 
  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  I didn't miss your point at all. I was just pointing out that the analogy is broken. You're basically giving an answer that's already been covered, "it's a mystery".
• 
  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  No, you are mixing up two things and trying to call them one thing, it seems. His not allowing the question to be change or the parameters is NOT disallowing lines of reasoning.

  It's his question and he's simply making sure that answers given stick to the question. It's not any different that a teaching asking what 2+2 is and when you say five and marks you wrong, you saying if the question was 2+3 then you would have the right answer.

  Besides, your answer about animals is not a good comparison. You aren't killing the animal, the people is the tsunami didn't get surgery or a painful medical treatment, they died. My dog accidentally poked her self in her neck on a stick, I am putting antibiotics on it. Sure, she doen't like it, but I do it anyway and I give her treats when I do it. I don't shoot her in the head even though that would technically stop the cut from getting infected and hurting her.

  Tec, you're free to create a counter-rebuttal list if you think there needs to be one. And you haven't provided proof of your accusation against Cofty.
• 
  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  Tec, I asked for an example where Cofty disallowed an answer.

  Saying "I don't know" would be fine, but you keep going and say you DO know. You're just mashing up two answers that have already been discussed. Your questions about someone else in my life, I don't see how that is relevant. It's made up to go with the answer you want to give (that we don't know, but we do) by making an emotional appeal on a hypothetical situation and it's loaded with WT like writing designed to make the outcome the one you want, "loved ones", "would you not trust", etc.

  Flamegrilled, why would you need additional evidence for God? The question already allows that the god of the Bible exists. Why do you mention other dilemmas and call reaching a conclusion lazy? Cofty is keeping it tight to see if there is an answer to the dilemma, how is that lazy?
• 
  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  Tammy, can you show a single instance of Cofty now allowing an answer to his question?

  And the answer you claim is a VERY honest answer is a mashup of "it's a mystery" and "for the greater good" while saying we know it's not a mystery because of Jesus and love.

  That's been answered already, all of tem, I think.
• 
  2596

  The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

  by cofty in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

  we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

  they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  This has been a fantastic thread, Cofty, thank you for putting together the summary and keeping it updated and keeping on topic despite all the attempts to derail it.